p.5 #1 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
freaklikeme wrote:
The front of the 18 prototype makes it look tiny, but the depth of the rear cap makes me think quite a bit extends into the camera. The steep angles of incidence probably make it a "best on film" lens.
Yes, I think the 18/4 prototype is probably from the era when they started releasing their LTM lenses (1999-2001) and it was
probably designed for the film Bessa cameras like those others.
Jan 16, 2023 at 10:48 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #2 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
highdesertmesa wrote:
Biggest hole in the CV lineup is the 28 f/1.4 Nokton (MFD of 0.5m).
I hope they eventually do the entire line of APO Lanthar:
21 f/2 APO Lanthar
28 f/2 APO Lanthar
75 f/2 APO Lanthar
90 f/2 APO Lanthar
135 f/2 APO Lanthar
That line of APO Lanthar doesn't seem plausible to me. At 21 and even 28 making a lens APO gets really tough. Leica hasn't done it for the M mount and when they have done it for the L mount the lenses got quite big and I think they have only announced the 21 and not actually produced it yet even though it has been years since they talked about making it. And a 135 f/2 APO Lanthar would be awfully big on a rangefinder camera and would be hard to focus. Leica's 135 f/3.5 APO lens is already about 500g, you got to think an f/2 would be pushing 800g and that sort of lens to me just isn't well suited for a rangefinder. That together with the focus challenge of a 135 f/2 lens make that seem impractical to me anyway. I think a 135 f/2.8 APO Skopar is possible and based on the 90 f/2.8 APO skopar wouldn't have to be that big. I think CV could keep that as small as the f/3.5 Leica.
p.5 #3 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
That line of APO Lanthar doesn't seem plausible to me. At 21 and even 28 making a lens APO gets really tough. Leica hasn't done it for the M mount and when they have done it for the L mount the lenses got quite big and I think they have only announced the 21 and not actually produced it yet even though it has been years since they talked about making it. And a 135 f/2 APO Lanthar would be awfully big on a rangefinder camera and would be hard to focus. Leica's 135 f/3.5 APO lens is already about 500g, you got to think an f/2 would be pushing 800g and that sort of lens to me just isn't well suited for a rangefinder. That together with the focus challenge of a 135 f/2 lens make that seem impractical to me anyway. I think a 135 f/2.8 APO Skopar is possible and based on the 90 f/2.8 APO skopar wouldn't have to be that big. I think CV could keep that as small as the f/3.5 Leica....Show more →
I guess I had the Lanthar 125mm in my head when thinking about the 135, but I had a momentary lapse of reason about these being used on the rangefinder, thanks.
p.5 #4 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
That line of APO Lanthar doesn't seem plausible to me. At 21 and even 28 making a lens APO gets really tough. Leica hasn't done it for the M mount and when they have done it for the L mount the lenses got quite big and I think they have only announced the 21 and not actually produced it yet even though it has been years since they talked about making it. And a 135 f/2 APO Lanthar would be awfully big on a rangefinder camera and would be hard to focus. Leica's 135 f/3.5 APO lens is already about 500g, you got to think an f/2 would be pushing 800g and that sort of lens to me just isn't well suited for a rangefinder. That together with the focus challenge of a 135 f/2 lens make that seem impractical to me anyway. I think a 135 f/2.8 APO Skopar is possible and based on the 90 f/2.8 APO skopar wouldn't have to be that big. I think CV could keep that as small as the f/3.5 Leica....Show more →
Cosina did tease us with an APO-Lanthar 25/2 patent and it looked to be about as small as the 35. I don't know why they didn't move forward with it, but they were thinking about a wide APO-Lanthar at one point.
p.5 #5 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
freaklikeme wrote:
Cosina did tease us with an APO-Lanthar 25/2 patent and it looked to be about as small as the 35. I don't know why they didn't move forward with it, but they were thinking about a wide APO-Lanthar at one point.
p.5 #6 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Cosina did tease us with an APO-Lanthar 25/2 patent and it looked to be about as small as the 35. I don't know why they didn't move forward with it, but they were thinking about a wide APO-Lanthar at one point.
My goodness, I think a 25mm APO would have sold better than the 35mm, which itself seemed like a popular lens. I know I would have grabbed one. Maybe there was some other reason behind it afterall.
Jan 17, 2023 at 04:15 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #7 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
I don't see in this patent that all these lenses will be APO lenses and only the lens diagram on the bottom left looks like a Lanthar to me, which all seem to have a relatively flat or outward curving front element with APD glass and a final element that is also outward curving. I am not describing it well but look at the lens diagrams and I think only the one looks at all like a Lanthar. The strong inward curving front element in the other three is not like any other Lanthar that I have seen. Take my evaluation with a big grain of salt, however, as I have zero expertise in lens design.
p.5 #8 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
freaklikeme wrote:
Cosina did tease us with an APO-Lanthar 25/2 patent and it looked to be about as small as the 35. I don't know why they didn't move forward with it, but they were thinking about a wide APO-Lanthar at one point.
Maybe they couldn't achieve Lanthar-worthy correction at the expected size and/or price point. Or more likely they just got distracted with a bunch of other ideas. Cosina and Light Lens Lab both seem to have LADD – Lens Attention Deficit Disorder.
p.5 #9 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
I don't see in this patent that all these lenses will be APO lenses and only the lens diagram on the bottom left looks like a Lanthar to me, which all seem to have a relatively flat or outward curving front element with APD glass and a final element that is also outward curving. I am not describing it well but look at the lens diagrams and I think only the one looks at all like a Lanthar. The strong inward curving front element in the other three is not like any other Lanthar that I have seen. Take my evaluation with a big grain of salt, however, as I have zero expertise in lens design....Show more →
You're right. It was an assumption based on the fact that the patent included the 35 and 50 designs. It may just be an Ultron, but it is one I'd like to see.
p.5 #10 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Super corrected APO wides like 21/25mm even with at f/2 max. aperture are going to be big for the M system.
The only two APO lenses wider than 35mm are the Otus 28/1.4 and Leica APO-Summicron-SL 21mm f/2 (not yet released) lenses. Of course a M version would be smaller but perhaps not much smaller than the CV 21/1.4 Nokton in length.
Jan 17, 2023 at 06:59 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #11 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Fred Miranda wrote:
Super corrected APO wides like 21/25mm even with at f/2 max. aperture are going to be big for the M system.
The only two APO lenses wider than 35mm are the Otus 28/1.4 and Leica APO-Summicron-SL 21mm f/2 (not yet released) lenses. Of course a M version would be smaller but perhaps not much smaller than the CV 21/1.4 Nokton in length.
Totally agree and that has been my worry about a wide APO. Oh and we can add to the list the Leica L mount 28 f/2 APO, which actually exists, is 700g and 102mm long. I think your estimate of a 25 or 21 f/2 APO being at least as big as the CV 21 f/1.4 is a good guess at how large such a lens would have to be. This is much bigger than I want on Leica M, but I realize that others might not be bothered by that size especially as this is wider than any frame lines and an external viewfinder or the LCD is going to have to be used anyway.
p.5 #12 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
highdesertmesa wrote:
Maybe they couldn't achieve Lanthar-worthy correction at the expected size and/or price point. Or more likely they just got distracted with a bunch of other ideas. Cosina and Light Lens Lab both seem to have LADD – Lens Attention Deficit Disorder.
Also possible. Or it could be a matter of interest. There have only been a couple of handfuls of lenses around the focal length for RF over the years, and, unless I'm mistaken, only two currently in production (the ZM Biogon 25 and the LM Elmar). It may be that the focal length doesn't give most RF shooters enough gap from their faster 28s.
p.5 #13 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
Totally agree and that has been my worry about a wide APO. Oh and we can add to the list the Leica L mount 28 f/2 APO, which actually exists, is 700g and 102mm long. I think your estimate of a 25 or 21 f/2 APO being at least as big as the CV 21 f/1.4 is a good guess at how large such a lens would have to be. This is much bigger than I want on Leica M, but I realize that others might not be bothered by that size especially as this is wider than any frame lines and an external viewfinder or the LCD is going to have to be used anyway....Show more →
Yes, that's how I shoot with the CV 21/1.4 Nokton. I don't care that it's long because I focus with the RF and frame with an external finder. It would be cool to have a superb 21/25mm M lens but I think the Leica 21/3.4 already does a great job there.
p.5 #14 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Really excited for this. For me, my small setup will be 21mm 3.5, 35mm 2.5 and 75mm 1.9.
Jan 17, 2023 at 09:41 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #15 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, that's how I shoot with the CV 21/1.4 Nokton. I don't care that it's long because I focus with the RF and frame with an external finder. It would be cool to have a superb 21/25mm M lens but I think the Leica 21/3.4 already does a great job there.
Again very much my thought as well as I love my Leica M 21 SEM. It is hard to imagine a lens being much better. If you wanted a lens for Nikon Z, however, there is now a gap between 15mm and 35mm that needs to be filled. I think CV will make something for that gap.
I am not sure they will make the same choices as they did for Sony E mount as when CV was making those choices Zeiss was making the Loxia lens for Sony E mount and that may have affected the choices CV made. For example they may have picked an f/1.4 and an f/3.5 lens at 21mm so that neither lens had to compete with the Loxia 21 f/2.8 directly and similarly they may not have made a 25mm or even 28mm lens for Sony E mount because they didn't want to compete with the excellent Loxia 25 f/2.4. Of course it would be easy to use the designs for the 21 f/1.4 and 21 f/3.5 that already work on Sony E mount. Or they could make just one moderate aperture lens like an f/2.5 or f/2.8. They might well make an 25mm or 28mm (I think a 28mm is more likely given Nikon's tradition of making great 28mm lenses) and they might even make two different 28mm lenses a 28 f/1.4 and 28 f/2.8 could make a lot of sense.
I also wonder if they will make a short tele that isn't a macro even though they didn't (at least yet) for Sony E mount. With Nikon Z they don't have to compete with the excellent Loxia 85 f/2.4, so maybe they will make a short tele or two for Nikon Z even though they didn't make such a lens for Sony E mount.
Sony E mount shooters might benefit from this as well, because even though they haven't made such lenses for Sony E mount yet, having both Z mount shooters and E mount shooters might entice CV to make lenses they might never had made if they were only making lenses for Sony E mount.
p.5 #16 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Don't all those Loxia lenses adapt to Nikon Z? Not that many will take that route...
Anyway, in respect to the new 75 Ultron, like the 35/1.5 sample images, these 75/1.9 samples look nice but are difficult from the perspective of forming a solid technical performance impression. At least for me.
I'm left with the feeling this Ultron might be a similar story to the 35/1.5. A very competent lens that doesn't quite live up to certain aspects of pre-release hype/expectations. Perhaps it won't be super sharp wide open, with some SA at nearer distances (no FLE or ASPH and focuses to 50cm, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing either, especially with the SC version). Also can't really form much opinion about LoCA/bokeh fringing when the wide open bokeh samples are mostly monochrome. But the bokeh/rendering does look nice, IMO. Nice also that the aperture blades keep a clean circular shape stopped down (at least at the aperture use in the image of the leaf on water - with sensor dust spots, haha). Based on the store interior shot through a window photo, distortion control looks very good. Maybe very slight pincushion distortion. Wide open cat's eye bokeh balls aren't really much of a surprise given the compact nature of the design, so seems to fit right in with the 28/2, 35/1.5, 50/1.5 II...
p.5 #17 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
rscheffler wrote:
Don't all those Loxia lenses adapt to Nikon Z? Not that many will take that route...
Anyway, in respect to the new 75 Ultron, like the 35/1.5 sample images, these 75/1.9 samples look nice but are difficult from the perspective of forming a solid technical performance impression. At least for me.
I'm left with the feeling this Ultron might be a similar story to the 35/1.5. A very competent lens that doesn't quite live up to certain aspects of pre-release hype/expectations. Perhaps it won't be super sharp wide open, with some SA at nearer distances (no FLE or ASPH and focuses to 50cm, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing either, especially with the SC version). Also can't really form much opinion about LoCA/bokeh fringing when the wide open bokeh samples are mostly monochrome. But the bokeh/rendering does look nice, IMO. Nice also that the aperture blades keep a clean circular shape stopped down (at least at the aperture use in the image of the leaf on water - with sensor dust spots, haha). Based on the store interior shot through a window photo, distortion control looks very good. Maybe very slight pincushion distortion. Wide open cat's eye bokeh balls aren't really much of a surprise given the compact nature of the design, so seems to fit right in with the 28/2, 35/1.5, 50/1.5 II......Show more →
The image samples are nice and artistic but they don't give away many clues. The lens is not aspherical and Cosina wrote that the new Voigtlander 75/1.9 Ultron yields "moderate amount of spherical aberration." From that we can assume it may not be very sharp with high micro-contrast wide open at close distance.
I wish Cosina would bring the classic rendering from the CV 75/1.8 Heliar. I really liked the draw but the size/weight + high axial CA were not ideal.
p.5 #18 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
Steve Spencer wrote:
Again very much my thought as well as I love my Leica M 21 SEM. It is hard to imagine a lens being much better. If you wanted a lens for Nikon Z, however, there is now a gap between 15mm and 35mm that needs to be filled. I think CV will make something for that gap.
I am not sure they will make the same choices as they did for Sony E mount as when CV was making those choices Zeiss was making the Loxia lens for Sony E mount and that may have affected the choices CV made. For example they may have picked an f/1.4 and an f/3.5 lens at 21mm so that neither lens had to compete with the Loxia 21 f/2.8 directly and similarly they may not have made a 25mm or even 28mm lens for Sony E mount because they didn't want to compete with the excellent Loxia 25 f/2.4. Of course it would be easy to use the designs for the 21 f/1.4 and 21 f/3.5 that already work on Sony E mount. Or they could make just one moderate aperture lens like an f/2.5 or f/2.8. They might well make an 25mm or 28mm (I think a 28mm is more likely given Nikon's tradition of making great 28mm lenses) and they might even make two different 28mm lenses a 28 f/1.4 and 28 f/2.8 could make a lot of sense.
I also wonder if they will make a short tele that isn't a macro even though they didn't (at least yet) for Sony E mount. With Nikon Z they don't have to compete with the excellent Loxia 85 f/2.4, so maybe they will make a short tele or two for Nikon Z even though they didn't make such a lens for Sony E mount.
Sony E mount shooters might benefit from this as well, because even though they haven't made such lenses for Sony E mount yet, having both Z mount shooters and E mount shooters might entice CV to make lenses they might never had made if they were only making lenses for Sony E mount. ...Show more →
That's a good point Steve. Cosina had to walk a fine line when producing Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses.
p.5 #20 · Cosina to release Voigtlander 75mm f/1.9 VM
The original APO-Lanthar design (105mm F/4.5 on Voigtlander Bessa II) was a variation from Voigtlander’s famed Heliar, but lanthanum element was used (plus a smaller max aperture) to achieve apochromatic control of chromatic aberration. “Lanthar” was indeed coming from lanthanum, but today’s APO-Lanthar lenses from Cosina have almost nothing to do with the original design from 1950s. Cosina previously used APO-Lanthar to name a few tele lenses with good but not outstanding chromatic aberration control: 90mm F/3.5, 125mm F/2.5, and 180mm F4, but now the name APO-Lanthar is reserved for Cosina’s best corrected and performing lenses, regardless they use lanthanum elements or not.
catacore wrote:
About the APO-Lanthar designation, isn't "Lanthar" coming from the Lanthanum (radioactive) element?
