p.20 #1 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
marcelography wrote:
all this talk about the A7CR and A7Cii not having a mechanical shutter... are for serious?
The camera DOES have a mechanical shutter, just with an electronic first curtain which in real life will pretty much not make any distinguishable difference. I have been shooting with the A7C for more than a year and not once I have felt that images have been affected. It's only on specific bokeh shots that it might be visible.
Not even on the full sized A7 series I would use the full mechanical shutter as it is pretty loud and sounds like optimus prime sneezing.
Just some thoughts about who needs full mechanical shutter.
I’ve noticed people tend to think “you gotta have it” or “there’s absolutely no need”
Neither is true in general, it depends what you do!
So one issue is the bokeh effects of EFCS at high shutter speeds. These are real, and I for one don’t like them. But in most situations where **I** am using high shutter speeds at wide apertures (outdoor portraits) electronic shutter is fine, and it doesn’t have those effects.
When will electronic shutter not do? When you are photographing fast action and the rolling shutter jello-cam distortion worries you AND the background has enough specular highlights so that if you switch to EFCS you will get the bokeh effects that you don’t want. Personally I’m not often doing that, but for a sports photographer could for example it could be an issue (but there are many respects in which the Cr is not a sports cam).
The other limitation is flash sync speed. It’s a bit worse than the A7r5 and a stop worse than A1. Does this matter? Well if you are shooting flash in a studio, and it turns out that the ambient light is just at the level where say 1/250 suppresses it but 1/160 lets in a bit too much, I guess it might. But that’s a very precise limit. If your set up is there, you know about it. The other case people talk about is outdoors in bright light. This doesn’t worry me: I do use flash fill at times outdoors in bright light for portraits, but in that case at wide apertures there is no option but to use HSS (high speed sync) in any case, because the shutter is bound to be faster than 1/250. But at wide apertures HSS is fine with a decently powerful flash. The only outdoor case here there might be an issue is where you are using very powerful strobes at small apertures with the aim of completely overpowering the bright light. Here, again, it’s just possible given your setup that the one stop or less difference might matter. If it does you know.
So once I get around to selling some gear, I’m personally very tempted to get an A7cr as a travel and general carry camera, keeping the r5 for when the lovely EVF outweighs the weight. It’s possible the lack of full mech will make me use my r5 for that reason occasionally, but I doubt it. If I were to have only one body, it would be a hard choice: for me it would be compactness versus joystick and EVF; two card slots and rear screen rez being a smaller advantage for the r5. But for you, sure, maybe your use case is one where the EFCS is an issue.
p.20 #2 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
joychris wrote:
No the negative and complaining part is pages and pages of the same stuff rehashed over and over. It is what it is and it’s not going to change despite your “extra 3 bucks” BS when you have no idea what it costs and the fact it would require the camera to be larger and gain weight. So it wouldn’t please everyone since it would not be as compact - the whole point of the C line. Sony knows better than you what will move more units. That camera you want already exists, it’s called the a7rV. So why keep harping on it? It’s just bizarre. I don’t like the ZVE1 because I’ll take a mediocre EVF over no EVF. This is literally the first time I’ve posted that.
And to clarify, I said perfect as in a perfect small FF hybrid. Sure there are warts, I'd like a full mech shutter, better EVF, and a higher Rez LCD, but we aren't getting it and it's not a dealbreaker - so there's no point in droning on about it. The new C's are flat out the most insanely capable hybrid cameras Sony has ever released, and they so compact. So yes I'm stoked about what Sony has done. Buy it or don’t, I don’t care because I’m getting both of them. I’m not going to continue to rehash this silliness, good luck in your search.
Chis it's a little piece of metal and it's not BS. A CNC machine can spit out dozens in less than 10 minutes. You are onto something though that I didn't consider. Which is how much bigger the camera would be and all that extra weight. That would be a deal breaker. So you have convinced me. It does make sense to leave something off these camera's that every single reviewer has raved about on the RV.
p.20 #3 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
DavidBM wrote:
Just some thoughts about who needs full mechanical shutter.
I’ve noticed people tend to think “you gotta have it” or “there’s absolutely no need”
Neither is true in general, it depends what you do!
So one issue is the bokeh effects of EFCS at high shutter speeds. These are real, and I for one don’t like them. But in most situations where **I** am using high shutter speeds at wide apertures (outdoor portraits) electronic shutter is fine, and it doesn’t have those effects.
When will electronic shutter not do? When you are photographing fast action and the rolling shutter jello-cam distortion worries you AND the background has enough specular highlights so that if you switch to EFCS you will get the bokeh effects that you don’t want. Personally I’m not often doing that, but for a sports photographer could for example it could be an issue (but there are many respects in which the Cr is not a sports cam).
The other limitation is flash sync speed. It’s a bit worse than the A7r5 and a stop worse than A1. Does this matter? Well if you are shooting flash in a studio, and it turns out that the ambient light is just at the level where say 1/250 suppresses it but 1/160 lets in a bit too much, I guess it might. But that’s a very precise limit. If your set up is there, you know about it. The other case people talk about is outdoors in bright light. This doesn’t worry me: I do use flash fill at times outdoors in bright light for portraits, but in that case at wide apertures there is no option but to use HSS (high speed sync) in any case, because the shutter is bound to be faster than 1/250. But at wide apertures HSS is fine with a decently powerful flash. The only outdoor case here there might be an issue is where you are using very powerful strobes at small apertures with the aim of completely overpowering the bright light. Here, again, it’s just possible given your setup that the one stop or less difference might matter. If it does you know.
So once I get around to selling some gear, I’m personally very tempted to get an A7cr as a travel and general carry camera, keeping the r5 for when the lovely EVF outweighs the weight. It’s possible the lack of full mech will make me use my r5 for that reason occasionally, but I doubt it. If I were to have only one body, it would be a hard choice: for me it would be compactness versus joystick and EVF; two card slots and rear screen rez being a smaller advantage for the r5. But for you, sure, maybe your use case is one where the EFCS is an issue. ...Show more →
It's hard to go wrong with the A7CR. It's a camera we've been waiting for since the original A7R. Talk about clunky shutter that one had!
And we put up with it. :-0
p.20 #4 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
The a7R sounded like an electric stapler.
Fred Miranda wrote:
It's hard to go wrong with the A7CR. It's a camera we've been waiting for since the original A7R. Talk about clunky shutter that one had!
And we put up with it. :-0
p.20 #5 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
tsdevine wrote:
The a7R sounded like an electric stapler.
First attempt of offering full mechanical shutter in a ultra compact full frame camera. Aside from the noise, there was noticeable shutter shock with that camera!
...has me wondering if the cr might work with the Actus wide-angle bellows. It's deeper than the original, but not as deep as the a7rII, which won't work. I'll have to check when my coworkers start receiving their orders.
p.20 #7 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Fred Miranda wrote:
First attempt of offering full mechanical shutter in a ultra compact full frame camera. Aside from the noise, there was noticeable shutter shock with that camera!
Would shutter shock still be an issue at SS faster than 1/1000s ? I think it might work ok then... and at slower SS we could use EFCS or full Electronic . Though it would be nice to have auto-shutter-type switching...
p.20 #8 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
I must admit, the A7C R is feeling like an eventuality for me after carrying around the A7R V through the forest the last four days. This recent trip practically sold me on it and the 40mm G.
p.20 #9 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Looking at the full specs in the Sony website... I think the A7CR might include a full mechanical shutter?
A7CR:
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes (ON/OFF)
A7Cii:
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes
For reference, the A7 IV
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes (ON/OFF)
And the A7C:
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes
I have checked on another language (Spain's website) and it's the same. Looking at this, could it be that the A7CR has the full mechanical shutter and the A7Cii only the EFCS? If not, what does it mean to have EFCS off?
p.20 #10 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
JustAnother wrote:
Looking at the full specs in the Sony website... I think the A7CR might include a full mechanical shutter?
A7CR:
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes (ON/OFF)
A7Cii:
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes
For reference, the A7 IV
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes (ON/OFF)
And the A7C:
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter
Yes
I have checked on another language (Spain's website) and it's the same. Looking at this, could it be that the A7CR has the full mechanical shutter and the A7Cii only the EFCS? If not, what does it mean to have EFCS off?
They both use the same shutter. EFCS off is just the electronic shutter.
p.20 #11 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
joychris wrote:
They both use the same shutter. EFCS off is just the electronic shutter.
Chris
I thought the same, but the full specs of the shutter for the A7CR and A7CII are different, with the A7CR matching those of the A7RV or A7IV, and the A7CII matching the A7C.
A7CR and A7CR:
Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter: Yes (ON/OFF)
A7C and A7CII
Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter: Yes
The full electronic shutter includes an EFCS, so I don't think that functionality is called EFCS off. For example, in the A7C manual you have the option of just select a silent shutter (i.e. full electronic). But in the E7RV you have a separate option to turn EFCS on-off. I think this matches the specs sheet for the A7CR
It's marked like this on A6700:
電子先幕シャッター ● ( 入/切 )
( 入/切 ) means On/Off.
I don't think all the early reviewers would have missed such difference when reviewing A7CII and A7CR together if it was actually there on the review cameras they had received. Some of the reviewers made a point that neither of the cameras have full mechnical shutter (including mechnical front curtain) and nobody seemed to claim otherwise.
p.20 #13 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
JustAnother wrote:
I thought the same, but the full specs of the shutter for the A7CR and A7CII are different, with the A7CR matching those of the A7RV or A7IV, and the A7CII matching the A7C.
A7CR and A7CR:
Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter: Yes (ON/OFF)
A7C and A7CII
Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter: Yes
The full electronic shutter includes an EFCS, so I don't think that functionality is called EFCS off. For example, in the A7C manual you have the option of just select a silent shutter (i.e. full electronic). But in the E7RV you have a separate option to turn EFCS on-off. I think this matches the specs sheet for the A7CR
I hope you are correct as previously when this was brought up here on FM about over a week ago, it was posted that the US specs saying it had a mechanical shutter and EVCS that could be turned On/Off were an incorrect listing, and Sony Asia's website did not say this. But I just went to the Sony Asia website (I am in Thailand right now) and it now matches what you posted per below. Very Confusing!!
Sony Asia Website Copy & Paste on Sept 9 5:21 PM (GMT +7)
A7CR Shutter
SHUTTER TYPE
Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
SHUTTER SPEED
Still images (Mechanical shutter): 1/4000 to 30 s, Bulb, Still images (Electronic shutter): 1/8000 to 30 s, Movies: 1/8000 to 1 s
FLASH SYNC. SPEED
1/160 s (35mm full frame), 1/200 s (APS-C)
ELECTRONIC FRONT CURTAIN SHUTTER
Yes (ON/OFF)
Below is the A7RV shutter listing from the same Sony Asia website, you will notice that that the specific shutter type is indicated and the A7CR type is not, it just says "Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter". This may be causing the confusion!
A7RV Shutter TYPE
Electronically-controlled, vertical-traverse, focal-plane type
SHUTTER TYPE
Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
SHUTTER SPEED
Still images: 1/8000 to 30 s, Bulb, Movies (NTSC mode): 1/8000 to 1/4 (1/3 steps), up to 1/60 in AUTO mode (up to 1/30 in Auto slow shutter mode), Movies (PAL mode): 1/8000 to 1/4 (1/3 steps), up to 1/50 in AUTO mode (up to 1/25 in Auto slow shutter mode)
FLASH SYNC. SPEED
1/250 s (35 mm full frame), 1/320 s (APS-C)
ELECTRONIC FRONT CURTAIN SHUTTER
Yes (ON/OFF)
SILENT SHOOTING
Yes (ON/OFF)
p.20 #14 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
JustAnother wrote:
I thought the same, but the full specs of the shutter for the A7CR and A7CII are different, with the A7CR matching those of the A7RV or A7IV, and the A7CII matching the A7C.
A7CR and A7CR:
Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter: Yes (ON/OFF)
A7C and A7CII
Shutter Type: Mechanical shutter / Electronic shutter
Electronic Front Curtain Shutter: Yes
The full electronic shutter includes an EFCS, so I don't think that functionality is called EFCS off. For example, in the A7C manual you have the option of just select a silent shutter (i.e. full electronic). But in the E7RV you have a separate option to turn EFCS on-off. I think this matches the specs sheet for the A7CR
There are a lot of reviews that specifically mention the mechanical shutter is EFCS only. The language may be a little confusing since it’s not the same across all Sony websites, but the hands on users were pretty specific about it.
p.20 #15 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Last Saturday I tried to get hands-on time with these new cameras at Sony Ginza Showroom but it turned out that it required a pre-booking since they expected a lot of people to want to try them out and I hadn't made one.
I made a booking now to see A7CR at Sony Ginza showroom on Saturday 9/9 at 3pm JST so I'll have a try there and confirm the menu properly.
Earlier today I pre-ordered an A7CII for myself though as I prefer that one
I now added a 2nd booking to try out A7CII from 3:20 pm right after A7CR. The bookings are for 15min slots.
p.20 #16 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Last Saturday I tried to get hands-on time with these new cameras at Sony Ginza Showroom but it turned out that it required a pre-booking since they expected a lot of people to want to try them out and I hadn't made one.
I made a booking now to see A7CR at Sony Ginza showroom on Saturday 9/9 at 3pm JST so I'll have a try there and confirm the menu properly.
Earlier today I pre-ordered an A7CII for myself though as I prefer that one
I now added a 2nd booking to try out A7CII from 3:20 pm right after A7CR. The bookings are for 15min slots....Show more →
Looking forward to hearing your reactions. What do you feel that you prefer about the A7CII?
p.20 #17 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
chiron wrote:
Looking forward to hearing your reactions. What do you feel that you prefer about the A7CII?
I've been happy with 24MP on my main cameras for the last several years and I don't have any use case where I would really want a lot more resolution. A lot of my adapted lenses could show more problems on a high resolution sensor, e.g. any weakness in edge and corner performance would probably be more pronounced. The laptop that I use for photo processing is not very new and powerful and I think it would also be much slower to process 61 MP photos on it, and I wouldn't want to upgrade it just now. Also not keen on increased storage requirements. I have a lot of 8 TB and 4 TB hard drives filled with photo files around already and shooting with a very high resolution camera would just increase the storage consumption.
The sensor readout on A7IV is reportedly faster (around 1/15s for 14-bit) than on A7RIV / A7RV (around 1/10s), and I've read that on A7C it is around 1/16s. I assume the readout times on A7CII and A7CR will correspond to the ones on A7IV and A7RV. I shoot with Electronic Shutter on my A7C most of the time (mostly still subjects in daylight) and it works out but sometimes I do get rolling shutter effects when not expecting that. With slower readout there would be more rolling shutter effects, so A7CR could be more problematic in that kind of shooting. For any action shooting I still keep my A9.
And finally the price gap between the 2 cameras is quite big and even bigger in Japan where A7CII was priced a bit lower than in the U.S. whereas A7CR is priced pretty much the same as U.S. with current currency rates (when comparing prices at Sony's online store to official U.S. prices).
p.20 #18 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I've been happy with 24MP on my main cameras for the last several years and I don't have any use case where I would really want a lot more resolution. A lot of my adapted lenses could show more problems on a high resolution sensor, e.g. any weakness in edge and corner performance would probably be more pronounced. The laptop that I use for photo processing is not very new and powerful and I think it would also be much slower to process 61 MP photos on it, and I wouldn't want to upgrade it just now. Also not keen on increased storage requirements. I have a lot of 8 TB and 4 TB hard drives filled with photo files around already and shooting with a very high resolution camera would just increase the storage consumption.
The sensor readout on A7IV is reportedly faster (around 1/15s for 14-bit) than on A7RIV / A7RV (around 1/10s), and I've read that on A7C it is around 1/16s. I assume the readout times on A7CII and A7CR will correspond to the ones on A7IV and A7RV. I shoot with Electronic Shutter on my A7C most of the time (mostly still subjects in daylight) and it works out but sometimes I do get rolling shutter effects when not expecting that. With slower readout there would be more rolling shutter effects, so A7CR could be more problematic in that kind of shooting. For any action shooting I still keep my A9.
And finally the price gap between the 2 cameras is quite big and even bigger in Japan where A7CII was priced a bit lower than in the U.S. whereas A7CR is priced pretty much the same as U.S. with current currency rates (when comparing prices at Sony's online store to official U.S. prices)....Show more →
p.20 #19 · Official: Sony A7C II, A7CR and FE 16-35mm f/2.8 GM II
I rented the 6700 this weekend and was hoping it would be the right camera for me. Don’t get me wrong it’s a great camera and a great value but I shoot too many low light shots and it won’t work out. I already have the RIII so I’m going with the A7CII as my second camera. Can’t believe how great the AF is on these cameras.
. Though it would be nice to have auto-shutter-type switching...