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Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount

  
 
mudlake
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p.8 #1 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Paris. My first try at street photography with the 28/1.4.







Jun 04, 2025 at 06:26 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #2 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Great. Street is many things to many people, but for me it is to instill curiosity in the viewer. What are they talking about? What is on their minds? Why so serious? I hope you enjoy it enough to do more..

The rasta guy's hand ornaments just add to it. The soft velvet look to the jacket.



Jun 04, 2025 at 06:56 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #3 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Two more 28mm portraits.




big hair is all the rage with young Indian guys









Jun 05, 2025 at 12:10 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.8 #4 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


mudlake wrote:
Paris. My first try at street photography with the 28/1.4.


Your first try and an excellent result. I like this shot a lot.



Jun 05, 2025 at 06:03 AM
Dave Sanders
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p.8 #5 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


philip_pj wrote:
I am exploring why its images look as they do. I always use it on a Sony a7r Classic. I've had it since 2013. A lot of lenses have traversed its mount over the 12 years til now.

These images of mine feature focus distances from say, one metre to 15m or so, at many apertures, different light, times of day. It's rendering is due to the lens design, and it's the naturalistic look they were after. Post processing is light and standard to what I always do.

As an interesting aside, Thypoch claim the 14 blade aperture helps to remove
...Show more

Technically, I don't think I understand how the number of aperture blades affects an image wide open. Is this Thypoch speaking to the lens stopped down?



Jun 05, 2025 at 12:02 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #6 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Thypoch certainly refer to it specifically:

'Its 14-blade aperture nearly eliminates onion-ring bokeh artifacts, producing dreamlike, creamy bokeh and smooth, natural transitions between in-focus and out-of-focus areas'

https://thypoch.com/products/simera/simera-28mm.html

The aperture is only activated in the image when stopped down. I wanted to know why this one produces the images that look the way they do. It's not me, I see it in the few Flickr accounts too, and mudlake's and others' images here. These are DZO lenses, even if many don't know or go with the sister company idea. So the answers are to be found there, I think.

Re aperture settings, the design aim is to reproduce at stopped down settings, the totally rounded 'aperture' that only wide open delivers. The problems associated with bad shaping of bokeh balls (as is well-known to Summilux 50mm users) tend to arrive when using a stop or two off wide open. If you shoot at night, dusk or in crowded streets in low light, you cannot avoid specular highlights! Or bokeh..

As it turns out, many cinematographers use f2.8 - it's a kind of long-established standard and that helps explain why T1.5 is still a very fast cine lens, many are T2.2 or thereabouts. Also, until recently, they were shooting super 35m which gave more DOF such that T2.8 looked like T4 on full frame. It's fashion, of course, a dynamic process.

https://wolfcrow.com/what-is-the-best-aperture-for-filmmaking/

DZO use these high blade apertures in all the lenses of their I checked - zooms, f2.2 Vespids, Arles f1.4s. So do two of the high end Zeiss cine ranges, and they talk them up too.

How does the (non-wide open) aperture change the image?

It's a big question, given that there is no doubt the bokeh is both highly distinctive and (to most eyes) very pleasing. It's also very flexible, reliable at any focus distance. Most fast 28s produce 'globby' or rather structured bokeh, unless you shoot them in a fairly narrow range of focus distances (camera-subject), so most users use either wide open or f5.6-f11. Or they shoot wide open with a longish focus distance, to get around the bokeh effect their lens has:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1493065/44/
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1842505/42/

The small blade counts of apertures might be one (unconscious) reason users tend to shun the f1.4 to f5.6 region - less pleasant bokeh and fade character. I often use f2-f2.8 or so with the Simera 28mm as a hedge against mis-focuses in close focuses, and to get more background detail (and less vignette), so I stumbled across these issues.

F2.8 to f4 still gives you a distance cut-off at typical focus distances - very useful in street work, as the bokeh onset is delayed, you can decide how much you want. Being cine oriented, DZO know users want to still show people as pretty well-drawn, off the focal plane, so that helps too.



Jun 05, 2025 at 08:17 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #7 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


It's no secret that DZO will sell far fewer Arles Prime cine lenses than Simeras (both cine and stills). They might use the lessons learned in producing Arles lenses as guide stones for future stills lenses, with or without cine versions.

People are not familiar with them, but they produce beautiful images, excellent engineering, QA. They are close in most design aspects to the Simeras, to the point where filmmakers are adopting the Simeras as B lenses for inserts to their Arles footage. The Arles:
..


..
It would be well within reach for DZO to look past the filling out of the Simera ranges and consider premium stills versions of the Arles in 36x24mm - the heavily built Arles lenses (a 10 lens set) cover a 50mm image circle and weigh around 1600 grams on average. They sell for $2150 to $2700 for each item. They are around 10% more complex than the Simeras, around what we see in the Zeiss ML and Sony GM lenses in specification.

Sony's GM 24-35-50-85 sell for $1400 to $2000, and weigh from 450g to 780g (50/1.2). Zeiss's ML lenses are 680g to 1030g, these are benchmarks. There might be a niche for super quality MF lenses - 'Arles ML' - that weigh around 750 grams and cost $1400-1700 each.

Context: Video and stills are moving ever closer together, now Sony has released its first low end cine camera with a (very cine looking) EVF. DZO will work closely with DJI, they are neighbors.

Everything is improving: Camera EVFs, AF aids, etc. Soon, Leica M. AF adapters are another area I think DJI could fix, probably in their sleep. That would open up the potential user base. Most photography enthusiasts would like to enjoy a fuss-free MF experience, but in an AF world, it's going to be small (but elite) scale only.



Jun 06, 2025 at 02:23 AM
philip_pj
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p.8 #8 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


All these new Chinese makers of interest - Thypoch, Viltrox and Sirui for examples - all use HRI glass in combination with minimal ED glass elements and a low-average use of aspherical elements. The others use a lot of ED plus average asph, or loads of APD (Cosina) or loads of asph and some APD (Leica).

Thypoch uses 14 or 16 blade apertures, Sirui's VP1 lenses (cine but small and 600g) use 14 or 18 (in the 50/1.4!) blades.

So that explains the look they are getting. Florent had the exact same response as I did with the Sirui's, in his video below. So the Chinese (i) think in ranges, (ii) have lenses with high correction yet produce dreamy bokeh, with a strong sense of balance in their designs. The rise of APD glass in the last 20 years has displaced HRI, and it looks like it is important here to the emerging Chinese house style..
..


..



Jun 07, 2025 at 02:10 AM
sandycrane
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p.8 #9 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Thanks, philip_pj





When thinking about simulating 3d on a 2d palette I'll keep this image in mind. For whatever explanation each person seems to occupy a distinct position in space.
One thing I find amazing is how the bokeh retains coherence with this lens. Out of focus details retain their identity and don't quickly devolve into incoherent blobs.
Colors and contrast seem to me just right.
Although the last thing I need is another lens, I've put in an order for the 28. Now I'm tempted to find a nice a7c so it can have its own pet camera.



Jun 10, 2025 at 08:59 AM
jowul
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p.8 #10 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


00demontver00 wrote:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422471128_659a184809_h.jpgFull steam ahead... by demontver, on Flickr


The photo gave me the impression that I "almost" could pick up the locomotive and remove it from the picture



Jun 10, 2025 at 03:06 PM
 


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Garmadon
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p.8 #11 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


This was taken with the simera?
sandycrane wrote:
Thanks, philip_pj
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/20/2900420.jpg
When thinking about simulating 3d on a 2d palette I'll keep this image in mind. For whatever explanation each person seems to occupy a distinct position in space.
One thing I find amazing is how the bokeh retains coherence with this lens. Out of focus details retain their identity and don't quickly devolve into incoherent blobs.
Colors and contrast seem to me just right.
Although the last thing I need is another lens, I've put in an order for the 28. Now I'm tempted to find a nice a7c so it can have its own pet camera.




Jun 10, 2025 at 03:38 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #12 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Yes, the trip was a journey of discovery using only these three Simeras. That was from the 28mm, it turns these out all the time. It started me off looking at other resources like the Camera Conspiracy guy and the Dirty Photography Club.

I post images out of the quality of them, as I have done here for over 15 years. I never expected others to see what I see. I would never suggest people should see the spatial depth in imagery, but I do find it fascinating. And that is the reason for exploring the occurrence, to find out why it happens. So it leads into lens design, obviously, but from the image backwards. I've read that lens designers regard bokeh as a secondary matter, for them the big thing is color correction, hence all the APD glass they now use. APD appears to be refined ED/LD glass.

Some of the glass is very expensive, the 2nd Leica Summilux 50/1.4 took ten years (!) to design to production level. Any wonder Thypoch used it as the model for its own 50/1.4. Peter Karbe had to 'encourage' glass suppliers to remake some that he needed for the third element. It cost more than all the glass in the lens combined. Just an example, details here:

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe-page-2

Apertures (irises) are another part of the puzzle; and they are changing. Leica and Sigma have released lenses with increased blade counts in recent months. But it has been an area of neglect, it seems fair to say. Many lenses get by with as few as nine blades, which indicates short camera-subject distances and full bokeh as the main use of those optics.

The recent history of lens design is a very interesting topic all by itself - from around 2005 until 2013 is the transition from before, to to what we live with now.

To end this ramble, it turns out that a little CA actually improves sharpness. This comes from an unimpeachable source, Art Adams of ARRI. The non-technical article on Provideo is here, if you want to take a look:

https://www.provideocoalition.com/chromatic-aberration-hard-edges-hue-shifts-and-storytelling/

So maybe the takeaway here is this: don't entrust the aesthetic quality of your lenses' images to your optical engineers. It's not their field. Perfection of optical science has gotten ahead of art, so that is a role reversal for you.



Jun 10, 2025 at 04:52 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #13 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


A little more about 28mm lenses, and this 28mm in particular.

Noam Kroll here talks about the magic status of the 28mm lens:

https://noamkroll.com/28mm-lenses-the-secret-ingredient-for-achieving-a-film-look/

The 28mm Simera is around average in complexity for a modern fast 28mm. 11 elements are combined into 7 groups, indicating that it has several 'doublets' or cemented element pairs. CV's 28/1.5 is a 10/8 design, Sony's 24/1.4 is a 13/11 design.

Thypoch (and DZO) use asph surfacing sparingly, just one rear element is non-spherical in shape. Both CV and Sony use four surfaces of asphericals. This tells us that Thypoch only resort to asph when forced to, for specific aberration control.

By the way, thanks to better tech Zeiss is also now using more asph surfacing, seen in the new 50/1.4 ML Otus. The older Otuses were identical in layout to the Simeras in number and placement of their one asph element.

Neither Cosina nor Sony make any mention of High Refractive Glass (HRI) glass, but Thypoch and other Chinese makers use it liberally - the 28/1.4 Simera has three such elements out of its 11 element total.

The Simera 28mm lens is rather dense for its size, and one reason is the lack of ED glass. The Dirty Photography club asserts that ED glass is very low density, and an AI search reveals this is indeed the case. The DPC claims ED glass is several times lower in density than regular optical glass and may be 3-4 times heavier than regular optical glass.

The main (only?) technical purpose of ED glass is to chase further down the rabbit hole of CA correction. Now it has so invaded modern lenses that it has become the major component of many of them.

But we live in a mirrorless world now, and weight is very important as a buying decision metric. We see the GM series and the new ML Otuses as examples of this now-critical specification. ED will certainly help that lens diet program along in the very complex lenses being made today, often 15 elements in prime lenses.

Lens design is of course very important, but the differences are very likely to be 'in the glass'. From Peter Karbe:

'In short, optical design software, as useful as it can be, will not help in choosing the appropriate glass types, especially those used to minimize secondary chromatic aberration.'

And also from him, on aperture shapes:

'“Good bokeh” is the essence of these (quality) targets for the use of wide aperture lenses. One key element in achieving it: when you stop down to a small aperture, the iris diaphragm should maintain a nearly circular shape.'

Thanks to ever-better sensor tech, it's another area of photography that has grown greatly - the inclusion in images of 'bokeh balls' (specular highlights) and we now see them heavily featured in reviews and tests.



Jun 10, 2025 at 06:05 PM
jay w
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p.8 #14 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


I finally got to shoot the 28 last night, mostly 1.4 to 2.8 area.











































That last one was a MFD.



Jun 11, 2025 at 11:44 AM
mudlake
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p.8 #15 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


This lens is so very sharp up close. I believe this one was f/2.







Jun 11, 2025 at 02:47 PM
mudlake
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p.8 #16 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


This one was shot at f/1.4, focused on the background.










Cropped from image 1




Jun 11, 2025 at 03:23 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #17 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


A short look at the types of special glass and iris (aperture) blade counts we find in some high end fast lenses. Most abbreviations will be obvious, but Sim=Simera; Sum=Summilux; O/ML are the two new Zeiss Otus lenses; Z=Nikon S lenses; CV=Voigtlander; V=Viltrox; S=Sirui. '4s' refers to aspherical surfaces (not elements) where stated. 'B' is the iris blade count total across lenses in each category. Focal lengths of 28-50-75 were targeted.

It's a horribly complex subject, especially given the very poor uniformity of data. Much of it was very hard to find, some is simply unavailable, such as Leica's Q series' non-asph special elements - if any.

Main conclusions that are unambiguous:

Establishment lenses are very heavy users of aspherical surfacing, supported by relatively small numbers of ED/LD glass. APD glass effectively does the job of ED/LD glass for color correction. Apart from Viltrox, the Chinese makers use little ED/LD glass and below average levels of asph surfacing.

The two elephants in the graph that point to how the new Chinese lenses are delivering their excellence are:

. an extraordinary use of high refractive index (HRI) glass; and

. the 30% higher average blade counts in their apertures.

Though highly desirable (and expensive), HRI is difficult to manage because it produces troublesome levels of CA; this set off the increase in use of ED/LD and APD glass in the last 15 years or so. But it's very effective if done right, and probably necessary for ultra high image quality - Leica's 35/2 APO-Summicron-M uses it in three positive elements conjoined with APD elements in doublets, as an exxample. The Chinese are to be commended for their astute use of HRI, with minimal CA.

High blade count irises are very difficult to design, fabricate and assemble. If in doubt about this, do a search on: 'difficulty manufacturing photo lens irises'.

The Chinese makers all use a combination of HRI and several of them use very high blade counts, a format that has started to filter into establishment lenses in recent months. It's very likely these are the two major factors in the often excellent out-of-focus results we see in these lenses.




selected fast lenses: special glass and iris blade counts




Jun 11, 2025 at 10:36 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #18 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Panjim, Goa.




..









Jun 12, 2025 at 05:56 AM
philip_pj
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p.8 #19 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


Panjim, Goa.




..









Jun 12, 2025 at 06:00 AM
Dave Sanders
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p.8 #20 · Thypoch Simera 28mm f1.4 E-mount


All of your research and musings on this subject are very interesting - the work put in to things like this table is much appreciated.

The only real issue left for me is finding a Simera 28 in stock in Canada.

philip_pj wrote:
A short look at the types of special glass and iris (aperture) blade counts we find in some high end fast lenses. Most abbreviations will be obvious, but Sim=Simera; Sum=Summilux; O/ML are the two new Zeiss Otus lenses; Z=Nikon S lenses; CV=Voigtlander; V=Viltrox; S=Sirui. '4s' refers to aspherical surfaces (not elements) where stated. 'B' is the iris blade count total across lenses in each category. Focal lengths of 28-50-75 were targeted.

It's a horribly complex subject, especially given the very poor uniformity of data. Much of it was very hard to find, some is simply unavailable, such as Leica's Q series'
...Show more




Jun 12, 2025 at 12:42 PM
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