p.4 #1 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Not likely to happen, but a M-EVF autofocus cine camera would be technically possible through the use of MOD 0.8 gear ring M mount lenses, with an external drive motor.
p.4 #4 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
airfrogusmc wrote:
I really doubt Leica will make an auto focus M anytime soon. No need. Zone and hyper focus work just fine.
This discussion about a new hypothetical M lens line with auto-focus comes up every time an EVF-M was suggested and when it focused on manual M lenses. This is likely caused because most if not all EVF-based cameras have AF capabilities. Leica is known to release sometimes niche camera products no other manufacturer does - to name full-frame M-D or M monochrome versions as examples. Leica most likely considers such EVF-M as addition to the existing M line and certainly not as replacement. It makes sense then that the EVF-M comes with M mount and not with L-mount. A new lens line with potential AF lenses is IMO very unlikely and kind of unnecessary under the context the EVF-M is seen in its usage.
A different question raised earlier here is if IBIS is used in the EVF-M. Even I believe it could be implemented (and it wouldn't be a bad thing!), I doubt the first iteration of such EVF-M will have it included. Leica likely wants to test the waters with this camera first before vesting too much into the first gen of EVF-M. I expect specs to be similar to the M11 when it comes to sensor, buffer size, body built for SD cards etc. Just that in the EVF-M the rangefinder will be gone and fully replaced with in-camera EVF. Or in other words I expect it to be a M11 where the external EVF merged underneath the top plate. T. Overgaard suspected exactly this in a video from last year when he mentioned the M11 as being a prototype for such EVF-M since the M11's hot-shoe-placed external EVF has already the same dimensions to fit in there. It would be pretty easy to manufacture such M11-leaning EVF-M, too with the M11 already being established.
Further speculating, the future rangefinder based M12 might instead have IBIS plus only touchscreen without buttons in the back. But this is full speculation from my side.
p.4 #5 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
FrozenInTime wrote:
But the magic look happens at f/1.4 and wider :-)
Slightly out of focus pics is how you get that glowing Leica look.
Completely oof pics is how you create art.
And as a digression, film scratching new M6s is that Leica ‘signature’.
p.4 #6 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Too much looking at this from a tech viewpoint. Leica is a company with a profit goal. Technically, a lot is possible, but that won’t drive their direction. I have no clue what they’re planning, but it seems both the M and Q lines are doing well. The SL line not so much.
They’re losing M customers as people get older and can’t use the RF focusing. If those people move to the Q, why bother? Nothing is lost. If they move to other brands, there’s a problem. But do they? I don’t know, but I see Nikon as the only challenger right now.
At the same time, youngsters seem to embrace Leica film M. Maybe leading into digital M. I don’t know.
I know, no answers here, but that’s exactly the point. They can go any way and it won’t be based on what technically they can do.
p.4 #7 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
To me it is fairly obvious that an M EVF will be for M lenses (and it is what many people have been asking for).
A smaller L mount camera was the opportunity that Leica missed when they introduced the substantial SL body. Introducing it now, it would simply bring extra competition to the current SL cameras, and there would be little point for buyers without a line of small L lenses to go with it, which would require enormous investment - unless, of course, Leica just wants to hand sales to Sigma and their Contemporary lenses.
So, the practicability of using those, beautiful, small M lenses on an EVF camera will depend on how fast and accurately the camera can focus fast M lenses wide open. Zone focusing is a great technique, but is only useful when stopped down, and primarily with lenses wider than 35mm, it is hardly possible when using a 50mm f1.4 at f1.4, let alone a 90mm at f2. Up until now, accurately and quickly focusing a 50mm or longer lens at 1.4 has only been possible with the best mirrorless AF cameras - it is their outstanding advantage when compared to M cameras. Focusing a 50mm M lens at 1.4 with a rangefinder on even slightly moving faces can be a real challenge. So Leica will need to find a way of quickly, accurately and reliably focusing a 50mm M lens at 1.4 to give it a clear advantage over any current M rangefinder camera, and to deny mirrorless cameras all the advantage.
p.4 #8 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
wolfloid wrote:
To me it is fairly obvious that an M EVF will be for M lenses (and it is what many people have been asking for).
A smaller L mount camera was the opportunity that Leica missed when they introduced the substantial SL body. Introducing it now, it would simply bring extra competition to the current SL cameras, and there would be little point for buyers without a line of small L lenses to go with it, which would require enormous investment - unless, of course, Leica just wants to hand sales to Sigma and their Contemporary lenses.
So, the practicability of using those, beautiful, small M lenses on an EVF camera will depend on how fast and accurately the camera can focus fast M lenses wide open. Zone focusing is a great technique, but is only useful when stopped down, and primarily with lenses wider than 35mm, it is hardly possible when using a 50mm f1.4 at f1.4, let alone a 90mm at f2. Up until now, accurately and quickly focusing a 50mm or longer lens at 1.4 has only been possible with the best mirrorless AF cameras - it is their outstanding advantage when compared to M cameras. Focusing a 50mm M lens at 1.4 with a rangefinder on even slightly moving faces can be a real challenge. So Leica will need to find a way of quickly, accurately and reliably focusing a 50mm M lens at 1.4 to give it a clear advantage over any current M rangefinder camera, and to deny mirrorless cameras all the advantage....Show more →
+1. I expect the EVF-M with M-mount to have an advanced focus system with improved magnification needed for wide open lens focus as you correctly stated. Curious if Leica combines this magnification focus with eye focus.
p.4 #9 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
My prediction: ~$12,995 base price in black or silver chrome (++ for special editions). EVF plus optical viewfinder, no tilt screen, only 6-bit coded lenses will work. Plus a new adapter to use SL lenses (with autofocus support) on the new M body. Or an adapter that will add autofocus for M lenses. Adapters will be slow and buggy.
p.4 #10 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
ninadp wrote:
My prediction: ~$12,995 base price in black or silver chrome (++ for special editions). EVF plus optical viewfinder, no tilt screen, only 6-bit coded lenses will work. Plus a new adapter to use SL lenses (with autofocus support) on the new M body. Or an adapter that will add autofocus for M lenses. Adapters will be slow and buggy.
p.4 #11 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
I feel Leica has "perfected" the digital M. That was M10R or M10P. M11 felt a little too digital to me. The thing that bothered me the most was the magenta color profile SOC. You can't make the M body any smaller due to the limitations of the RF lens mount to sensor distance or sacrifice battery life. If I must have EVF, 020 or EVF2 can do the job. You know they will release a D version of M-EVF. That would be the ultimate oxymoron.
p.4 #12 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
gordec wrote:
I feel Leica has "perfected" the digital M. That was M10R or M10P. M11 felt a little too digital to me. The thing that bothered me the most was the magenta color profile SOC. You can't make the M body any smaller due to the limitations of the RF lens mount to sensor distance or sacrifice battery life. If I must have EVF, 020 or EVF2 can do the job. You know they will release a D version of M-EVF. That would be the ultimate oxymoron.
A D version with just an EVF would work great for me. If they took the space from the rear screen and made a great EVF with high magnification, I could use just that. Extra points if it can tilt up. Use the rest of the saved space for an IBIS unit.
I mostly review through the EVF if available anyway. Rear screens are just for low down shooting or menus scrolling.
I fixed the M11 colours pretty quickly with a preset in the calibration tab in LR.
p.4 #13 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
Manson wrote:
This is interesting, as i have been wondering if the “Leica M body” buisness model has reached its plateau with the M11 (60MP, triple resolution,touch-screen, usbc, decent battery life, etc) parking the initial software issue..
Interest in everyone’s thoughts
The M11 has several weaknesses, primarily the slow readout of the sensor, which means e-shutter is prone to rolling shutter effects. IMO a truly silent and usable M with a stacked sensor seems like such a 'no-brainer' that I'm surprised Leica put the slow 60MP sensor in the M11 instead of the fast 50MP from the a1, unless of course that one wasn't available from Sony.
To me the M is a handheld camera for dynamic situations and a stacked sensor would be very welcome.
And if not stacked, then EFCS needs to be added as an option in addition to regular mechanical shutter and e-shutter.
Regarding an EVF M camera: I'm undecided whether M mount would be better than L mount. Yes, no adapter, but it makes the camera a lot more niche. Not that Leica is afraid of niches! As L mount you'd then have access to AF and all the L lenses in addition to M, but of course, then it's just another SL variant in the form of a rangefinder camera.
If M mount, I still think the sensor will need to be PDAF capable so that the focusing aids can tell you what direction to focus and indicate how far out the focus is. I'm not familiar with Nikon's manual focusing aids but love Canon's implementation, which leverages their dual-pixel PDAF to provide a 'match needle' style that very clearly indicates how far off focus is and which way to turn the focusing ring. IMO focus peaking is only good for wide aperture use and is too inaccurate moderately stopped down, especially with wider angle lenses. And while magnification provides accuracy, it's slow. A picture in picture option that Gordon suggested might be a workaround, but I'd have to try it.
Two things an EVF-only M camera must have for me to be interested:
- stacked sensor for usable e-shutter
- IBIS. I wouldn't care if it made the camera slightly thicker (I still use the 'fat' M240 after all).
All that said, I still think rangefinder OVF focusing is the fastest manual focusing experience I've ever had. But yes, it is very reliant on proper calibration... An M EVF camera would be a solution to minimize downtime due to potentially less need for very slow servicing by Leica.
p.4 #14 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
wolfloid wrote:
So, the practicability of using those, beautiful, small M lenses on an EVF camera will depend on how fast and accurately the camera can focus fast M lenses wide open. Zone focusing is a great technique, but is only useful when stopped down, and primarily with lenses wider than 35mm, it is hardly possible when using a 50mm f1.4 at f1.4, let alone a 90mm at f2. Up until now, accurately and quickly focusing a 50mm or longer lens at 1.4 has only been possible with the best mirrorless AF cameras - it is their outstanding advantage when compared to M cameras. Focusing a 50mm M lens at 1.4 with a rangefinder on even slightly moving faces can be a real challenge. So Leica will need to find a way of quickly, accurately and reliably focusing a 50mm M lens at 1.4 to give it a clear advantage over any current M rangefinder camera, and to deny mirrorless cameras all the advantage. ...Show more → retrofocus wrote:
+1. I expect the EVF-M with M-mount to have an advanced focus system with improved magnification needed for wide open lens focus as you correctly stated. Curious if Leica combines this magnification focus with eye focus.
It can't be only magnified focus and/or peaking. Magnified is too slow and disorientating to switch between the full image and a magnified portion, especially if the subject is moving.
The focus aid IMO needs to be phase detect pixel based so that the camera knows to tell you which way to focus the lens and by how much. As I stated above, a focusing aid like Canon's, that merges three triangles as you near correct focus, is much faster to use than magnified view and is very reliable because it's using PD pixels to guide the focusing aid.
It shouldn't be a problem to combine this with eye detection and dynamic tracking around the image given that this is now ubiquitous with mirrorless cameras.
p.4 #17 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
airfrogusmc wrote:
I really doubt Leica will make an auto focus M anytime soon. No need. Zone and hyper focus work just fine.
An "autofocus" M is antithetical. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that Leica will NEVER make an autofocus version of an M.
While it was an APS-C sized format, the CL was about as close to an AF M as you'll ever get. Bump the CL to FF ... and you've probably got the camera that folks really want (for those that want something between an M / SL).
But, even in doing so, it still isn't an M, which I think will always remain mechanical focus only. But, as fantasy thoughts go ... I'd dig on an M - variant that ditches the focal plane shutter and uses ff format M mount, leaf shutter lenses.
p.4 #18 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
OwlsEyes wrote:
In many ways, the CL Digital is the camera that people are looking for,
Yup, the form factor of the CL was the closest thing going. Granted, APS-C (i.e. not FF), but it was a dandy in the hand, and the EVF placement (while not an RF, it was in the classic RF location) in the corner made for a good experience. If you take note of the button layouts of the CL ... you can see the present day button layouts closely resemble the CL layout ethos.
I rolled with the M>L adapter with mine, and it worked fab. A grown up version with a dedicated M mount would likely even provide enough real estate for the addition of IBIS, as it would then be thicker than the CL was in its very svelte form factor as an L mount.
In some regard (dreamer), one might wonder if Karbe killed off the CL ... far ahead of his longer range plan for it to grow up into a FF variant for the inevitable "EVF M". Although, while I say inevitable ... that isn't the same thing as imminent. So, the "rumors" ... well, there was a rumor for the CL2 that never came to fruition. EVF M ... not holding my breath, just yet.
But, if it is a CL form factor (different from SL, no hand grip built in, VF in the RF position, not central) ... all grown up, it'll do well ... in either an L mount, or an M mount.
p.4 #19 · A Leica M camera with an EVF is expected by the end of 2025
OwlsEyes wrote:
As for Leica, they could create an EVF body built around the CL design ethos, make it full frame, and create a few manual "M-style" lenses that could be used directly on the SL mount. As a selling point, they could release the "Street Shooter's" model with a manual focus L-Mount Summicron 35mm f2 (price it a the Q3... or slightly above level), and it would sell like hotcakes. Users of this body could choose to use the autofocus L-mount lenses or the few special edition manual focus L-mount lenses.
The best CL was and is the CL film camera....just my 2 Cents. But this is a different topic!
Agree using the CL as kind of template but with modern full-frame sensor and with M-mount not L-mount. Pretty sure that Leica wont release the EVF-M with L-mount for reasons I stated earlier and no new lenses made either with AF capability. The EVF-M will be like a rangefinder M for M-lenses but with EVF instead of OVF. Nothing else.
