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105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored

  
 
Ripolini
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p.1 #1 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


LensTip has recently published the 105 MC review.
As usual, their image resolution data refer to one focusing distance (I guess infinity or so), so we have no information on how good the lens is across the focusing distance range, and how it compares in close-ups to the lenses they used for comparison (90/2.8 by Tamron and Laowa).
Anyway, what surprised me was their final evaluation of focus breathing, classified as "monstrous".
They continue to forget that the angle of view (AoV) is mathematically related to the actual focal length, F, the magnification (or reproduction ratio, R), and pupil magnification, P (the ratio of the diameter of the exit pupil to the diameter of the entrance pupil of an optical system):

where x is the diagonal of the sensor/film.
Therefore, driven by curiosity, I checked the data available in photonstophotos.net, "Optical Bench" interactive section of the website.
I selected three macro lenses (MC 105, AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105/2.8G VR and the Canon RF 100/2.8 macro IS USM) and I plotted first their focal length change vs magnification:



We see that all considered macro lenses shorten their FL going from infinity (R = 0) to life size (1:1; I didn't include in the plot the 100 RF data in the 1-1.5X range). This is obviously a consequence of the floating element design. We also note that the shortening is more pronounced for the two MILC lenses (105 MC & 100 RF) than for the "old" F-mount Micro-Nikkor.
This could induce us to conclude that the larger the contraction of the focal length the more pronounced the change of AoV and, consequently, the focus breathing. Common sense often misleads us.
I then decided to plot AoV as a function of focus distance (= working distance + front element-sensor distance, the latter constant, all three lenses being IF).
Here is what I got:



We note that the Canon lens shows less breathing. The AoV changes less, going from 24° (infinity) to 23° (at 80 cm). In the same range, the AoV of the MC 105 changes from 24° to 21°. The Canon seems preferable for video at normal distances.
The two Micro-Nikkor lenses show much more pronounced focus breathing at close distances. The AoV shrinks more. Honestly, in close-ups I prefer an AoV as small as possible for better isolation of the subject from the background (see my recent pictures here: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1705116/81#16828165).
By looking at the two plots above, we learn that focal reduction and magnification are not sufficient to understand how much the AoV does change. In fact, according to the formula I gave at the beginning, to know the AoV we have to consider: 1) the magnification (the larger, the higher the reduction of the AoV); 2) the actual focal length (the shorter the F, the wider the AoV), AND - most important - the pupil magnification, which changes with focus distance and lens design.
In conclusion, the AoV tipically shrinks in macro lenses, and shrinks more the closer you focus. It's "normal", and this is the real reason why the actual aperture changes from infinity to closer distances (the lens collects less light from the front element). Focus breathing is absolutely unavoidable, even in normal lenses, unless you design the lens by adapting F and P so as to keep the AoV as constant as possible when R increases. This is one reason why cine lenses are expensive.
The "monstrous" focus breathing of the MC 105 is higher than, say, the Canon's. In close-ups, however, the (much) reduced AoV helps isolating the subject from the background. This cannot be considered a “flaw” (a Cons in LensTip review) but rather a feature of the lens, which can also come in handy, photographically speaking, for the macrophotographer.
Finally, let me stress that I noted some misalignment of the lens LensTip used to take Sample shots. Do you feel the same?


Edited on Jun 06, 2025 at 08:28 AM · View previous versions



Jun 06, 2025 at 06:46 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #2 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


AFAIK Lenstip specifically do their MTF testing at multiple distances and present an average of those as the result. This differs from most other sites which either test at infinity or at a fixed distance to cover the size of the physical lens test chart with the lens at hand.


Jun 06, 2025 at 08:15 AM
Ripolini
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p.1 #3 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


ilkka_nissila wrote:
AFAIK Lenstip specifically do their MTF testing at multiple distances and present an average of those as the result. This differs from most other sites which either test at infinity or at a fixed distance to cover the size of the physical lens test chart with the lens at hand.


I don't know. But I'm sure that averaging MTF data coming from different focusing distance is a complete nonsense. I hope (for them) that you're wrong.



Jun 06, 2025 at 08:29 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #4 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


From the horse's mouth:

https://www.lenstip.com/127.1-article-why_the_lenstip_reviews_differ_from_others_.html

"While we work out an average of measurements often taken on three charts of different size and they get results based on one chart only, the differences might be sometimes significant. "

I recall reading they used six distances but this would suggest only three. It is clearly stated they average the results for the different chart sizes (implying different distances.).

One might send e-mail to the site maintainer and ask for specifics regarding the 105 MC test.



Ripolini wrote:
I don't know. But I'm sure that averaging MTF data coming from different focusing distance is a complete nonsense. I hope (for them) that you're wrong.




Jun 06, 2025 at 08:54 AM
Ripolini
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p.1 #5 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


ilkka_nissila wrote:
From the horse's mouth:
https://www.lenstip.com/127.1-article-why_the_lenstip_reviews_differ_from_others_.html
"While we work out an average of measurements often taken on three charts of different size and they get results based on one chart only, the differences might be sometimes significant. "
I recall reading they used six distances but this would suggest only three. It is clearly stated they average the results for the different chart sizes (implying different distances.).


Thank you.
Optical aberrations depend (sometimes strongly) on focusing distance.
Even distortion and vignetting. So I wonder if they average distortion and vignetting data too. What a craziness.
They could/should give figures for each chart size, i.e., for each focusing distance, IF the focusing distances they test are significantly different. For example, Zeiss published (real) MTF tests of the Zeiss 100/2 Makro-Planar at two different magnifications (1:10 & 1:2) and @ f/4:







I found that info much useful: I can understand that the lens has not been optimized for close-ups, although at 1:2 the sharpness is even more uniform than at 1:10 (@ 1:2 sagittal and tangential curves are flat and overlap across the full frame, up to the corners, as should be for a "true" macro lens (I wonder how many macro lenses are capable of such performance...).

ilkka_nissila wrote:
One might send e-mail to the site maintainer and ask for specifics regarding the 105 MC test.


I doubt they have charts suitable for macro range. They could average figures obtained at, say, 1:5, 1:10 & 1:20. This doesn't tell us anything about quality in close-up (R < 1:3) photography.
Anyway, the data I used for my plots above, and the resulting analysis, should be much more sound.



Jun 06, 2025 at 09:20 AM
 


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EB-1
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p.1 #6 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


Are you happy with the IQ at 1:1 to 1:3?

EBH



Jun 07, 2025 at 07:16 PM
Ripolini
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p.1 #7 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


I don't own the 105 MC, I use the AF-S 105/2.8G and the 100/2 Makro-Planar. The latter is visibly better, but doesn't go to 1:1.
That said, my post was aimed to stress that focus breathing (i.e., the change of AoV) of macro lenses must be expected, and it's a topic that reviewers at LensTip seem to ignore. AoV decreases with magnification. The extent of such a change depends on how much the (actual) focal length and the pupil magnification do change by focusing from infinity to closer distances. Therefore, all macro lenses do reduce significantly the AoV from infinity to close distances. It's a normal phenomenon. No "monstrosity".

P.S.: I mentioned that MTF tests were made at unknown distance(s). Most likely the MTF data were acquired at R > 1:3. The test also compared the 105 MC to two other macro lenses but the reader can't understand which lens is better in close-ups. And people usually buy macro lenses to take close-ups A given macro lens could be preferable at long distances, another one (e.g., a lens designed to go to 2:1) could have been optimized for close-ups.



Jun 08, 2025 at 01:39 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #8 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


I think you should test your own copy at the most used magnification ratios.
IIRC one of the older 105/2.8 micros was about 84mm at 1:1. I'm not sure if that was the manual focus version or the AF-D. Actual focal length is usually less important then the distance from subject to lens front (working distance). All the shrinking FLs at 1:1 make me want a new 200mm micro.

EBH



Jun 08, 2025 at 02:21 AM
Lance B
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p.1 #9 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


Ripolini wrote:
I don't own the 105 MC, I use the AF-S 105/2.8G and the 100/2 Makro-Planar. The latter is visibly better, but doesn't go to 1:1.
That said, my post was aimed to stress that focus breathing (i.e., the change of AoV) of macro lenses must be expected, and it's a topic that reviewers at LensTip seem to ignore. AoV decreases with magnification. The extent of such a change depends on how much the (actual) focal length and the pupil magnification do change by focusing from infinity to closer distances. Therefore, all macro lenses do reduce significantly the AoV from infinity to
...Show more

I agree. When I saw them complaining about breathing, I thought to myself, breathing would have to occur in a macro type lens, especially as you get to macro distances as it would be basically unavoidable unless the lens was made hideously large to try to remove it. Like everything, compromises have to be made unless you are happy to accept the compromise of a large, heavy and expensive lens in order to try to dial out or minimize any breathing. It may be considered monstrous breathing for a normal lens but more acceptable in a macro lens due to the change in AoV (focal length). As you say, AoV (focal length) changes as you get closer to MFD and that is why the aperture reported changes due to the AoV (focal length) and aperture relationship changing. The actual aperture size doesn't alter, only the AoV and thus focal length changes which means that the focal length/aperture relationship is altered.

As for the MTF test distances, again, I agree. I am more interested at how well it performs at macro distances, not at 3 or more other distances further from MFD that are not really relevant to most macro users. If they are going to use this method of averaging the MTFs of 3 or more different distances, then I want to see those individual MTFs, and for a macro, the ones that are most relevant are the MFD results. Do they test for 3 or more MTFs for all lenses? If so, I want to see the results for all distances - a portrait lens needs to be best served at portrait distances. If an 85mm portrait lens is tested at 30metres, sharpness there less important than from MFD to say 10metres. Averaging them out over these distances is quite misleading and can be less important.



Jun 08, 2025 at 02:29 AM
Ripolini
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p.1 #10 · 105 MC review by LensTip: several technical considerations they ignored


EB-1 wrote:
I think you should test your own copy at the most used magnification ratios.


People read tests to know which lens suits their needs. We can't buy all 90-105 macro lenses, test them and then send back those we dislike
What I like of my AF-S 105/2.8 is the larger working distance compared to the 105 MC. But my opening post wasn't addressed to working distances.


EB-1 wrote:
IIRC one of the older 105/2.8 micros was about 84mm at 1:1. I'm not sure if that was the manual focus version or the AF-D. Actual focal length is usually less important then the distance from subject to lens front (working distance). All the shrinking FLs at 1:1 make me want a new 200mm micro.


All info here:
https://www.photonstophotos.net/GeneralTopics/Lenses/OpticalBench/OpticalBench.htm
The AI-S 105/2.8 focal length at 1:2 is 82.3 mm (to get 1:1 PN-11 is required, and extension tubes do not change the focal length of the optical system; they DO reduce the AoV because they increase the magnification).
The Micro 105 AF/AF-D lens has 73.7 mm focal length at 1:1.
The Micro-Nikkor AF ED 200/4D has 151 mm and 102 mm focal lengths at 1:2 and 1:1, respectively.



Jun 08, 2025 at 02:46 AM







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