Does anyone know if there are statistics or data regarding survival of digital M cameras? The M8 has been around for a good while now, and the M9 is getting up there in years as well. Looks like they still sell for a decent amount of money and I am wondering what percentage of these cameras have given up the ghost by now. Parts must be increasingly difficult to acquire and I don’t know how many independent repair places work on these.
Anyone sitting on some useful data regarding this?
The usage scenarios and idle storage conditions do affect lifespan and each situation varies quite a bit. The M9 in particular had the cover glass corrosion factor which is not indicative of the other models.
I don't have access to internal Leica service data, but you could email them for a general approximation. The USA branch at least in my experience have been quite generous and open with any historical information request as long as it doesn't breach privacy clauses.
Attached below are self-reported lifespans of just the shutter components. They are a small sample size, and other factors are unknown. Source: https://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/
My older Minolta/Sony cameras have been reliable for over 30 years now (even their original batteries work well), but they aren't heavy professional usage more like hobby rotational.
I will update this post in 25 years if I'm still around then and haven't sold my current Ms.
ftllens wrote:
The usage scenarios and idle storage conditions do affect lifespan and each situation varies quite a bit. The M9 in particular had the cover glass corrosion factor which is not indicative of the other models.
I don't have access to internal Leica service data, but you could email them for a general approximation. The USA branch at least in my experience have been quite generous and open with any historical information request as long as it doesn't breach privacy clauses.
Attached below are self-reported lifespans of just the shutter components. They are a small sample size, and other factors are unknown. Source:https://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/
My older Minolta/Sony cameras have been reliable for over 30 years now (even their original batteries work well), but they aren't heavy professional usage more like hobby rotational.
I will update this post in 25 years if I'm still around then and haven't sold my current Ms. ...Show more →
Very interesting. Shutter longevity is fairly high up to ~50k actuations, then starts dropping noticeably, with a big decline after 100k.
10k–50k is a safe zone, but careful use can extend life. After ~100k, expect higher chance of servicing or replacement. Mechanical shutters are easier to fix than electronics but still a key factor in overall camera lifespan.
I hope we are both alive to see your next chart in 25 years!
Fred Miranda wrote:
Very interesting. Shutter longevity is fairly high up to ~50k actuations, then starts dropping noticeably, with a big decline after 100k.
10k–50k is a safe zone, but careful use can extend life. After ~100k, expect higher chance of servicing or replacement. Mechanical shutters are easier to fix than electronics but still a key factor in overall camera lifespan.
I hope we are both alive to see your next chart in 25 years!
Not sure if the data is comparing to an established MTBF from the mfr, but the point where it reaches around 38%-ish is a reliability number that pops up when the average MTBF equals the expected MTBF, using exponential distribution.
Translation ... an average vs. the expected means about a 50/50 shot of making it that far. I know that % number is showing in the 30's but that's just kinda how the exponential math formula works out.
Note the 3 vs. 3 (i.e. 50/50) for the M8 = 37.5%
I don't know what Leica's expected design MTBF is, but I seem to recall that the Canon Pro models were slated around 300,000, and consumer models around 100,000. Similar for Nikon Pro, etc. iirc.
That said, seeing where the 38% mark is for the M8 / M9 ... I'd venture a guess that Leica's design MTBF (which is a mean, not an end of life necessarily) target is in that 150-500 range, i.e. same 300K as the other mfr pro models.
I'd be curious to know Leica's design / testing MTBF targets.
Of course, too ... those higher count numbers ... not a lot of them available for data points because (self-reporting) not a lot of folks stick with a camera that long. I mean, it's one thing for a professional sports photographer to rip of 1,000,000 frames. It's quite another for an M shooter to do 300K-500K. For some folks that's 30-50 years worth of shooting 10K images / year on an M body.
I say that because it may be that Leica actually designs higher, but we just don't have people reaching (self-reporting) those volumes very often ... based on usage, not based on failures per se.
Still, interesting info ... but, I wouldn't read the >100K falloff as being a worrisome point the same way many folks might interpret this info. Imo, a well taken care of rig with 100K should be in good shape to go twice that long again (+200K = 300K). But, I would use it as a point of negotiation on price point.
I agree with regard to using shutter failure as a basis for determining camera lifespan. As long as parts are available, they're replaceable/repairable.
Last time I checked, my M9 was over 150K actuations (there's a small app that would read this info from M9 files) but I don't know where my M240 stands (no similar app, AFAIK). Probably similar or more, but the shutter died after 4 years and Leica replaced it (the shutter, in 2018).
The M8 had age-related problems with the rear LCD display. I seem to recall reading a while back that Leica was no longer able to source that part and therefore couldn't service that aspect. I'm not even sure if Leica still generally services the M8. And with the M9 the major concern would be sensor corrosion if the sensor hadn't already been replaced under the recall. Or if replaced early in the recall before Leica had the better replacement available, it could still be a concern. Rather than simply say 'sorry you're SOL' I understand Leica will offer a discount on a current or recent replacement model.
Leica is certainly better than most other camera brands with duration of equipment support, in that they seem to service equipment as long as they can still make or get the parts for them. For example, Canon publishes an 'end of service' chart for their products and generally once a product is discontinued, it's supported for about 5 years. But certainly a factor against longterm viability of any digital camera is electronic component failure. I mean, I have some Canon EF lenses from the mid-90s that still work but are long discontinued and therefore no longer serviceable by Canon, but might still be by third parties. The problem with/for third parties is that some of the brands stopped selling parts to them and for anything discontinued, they'd have to source parts from somewhere, such as donor equipment. In such cases it's usually more economical just to buy another copy of the camera or lens, if readily available. Or you spend more and get a product that is still supported.
