p.2 #1 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
mranger211 wrote:
It makes a lot of sense for Leica to control the design and manufacturing of their sensors. The reliance on Sony for sensors makes their entire camera business dependent on Sony, which is huge going concern risk.
Will their new sensor be as advanced as the latest Sony models? Probably not, but I am not sure if Leica really needs the latest and greatest sensor performance for their market niche.
I don't understand the going concern risk. I think all other major camera brands except Canon rely on Sony sensors. There are clear financial and technical reasons for that. Leica also changed to this likely for those same reasons. It seems to me that Leica is taking on more risk by trying to change that.
p.2 #2 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
retrofocus wrote:
I can be wrong, but as I mentioned above in my post the main benefit for Leica is getting the future sensor cheaper. Technical reasons might be secondary. Sony sensors have the edge, but Sony asks bigger bucks for them. I think Leica is under pressure with new leadership to increase profits. One way to do it is to cut in the production/parts and sell the final product (camera) for the same (or even higher) price. I am carefully optimistic what this new sensor might bring. Not convinced that it will be matching Sony sensor performance.
My guess is the "cost savings" is really Gpixel paying Leica to be in their cameras or subsidizing the design costs in some way. This is a relatively cheap part and Leica's volumes are low so there's no economies of scale benefits to go with this.
It's really a shame that they're moving away from Sony sensors - every Leica sensor until they shifted to Sony was technically behind the mainstream camera brands. Now, with their leveraging Panasonic tech, they're basically at par on the SL side.
p.2 #3 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
Steve Spencer wrote:
Where has the dynamic range of this sensor actually been tested in a camera? I think Sony just reports the maximum dynamic range, but I would want to see DR for the full range of ISOs. We won't know sensor scan speed until it is actually in the camera as well. Even as a partially stacked sensor, sensor scan speed might only be 1/50th of a second. That would be a big improvement over the current M11 sensor, but still would produce motion distortion for quite a few things.
Generally, higher resolution, sensor scan speed, color depth, and high ISO performance need to be balanced. Leica might like to design that balance rather than let Sony do it. For example, they might prefer lower resolution, say 40MP as Fred suggests, which should increase sensor scan speed over a 67 MP sensor, but they might want to make sure color depth doesn't drop and that the dual gain has a big step at a higher ISO to maximize high ISO performance. They might also make the base ISO 200, which can aid in improving high ISO performance as well--at the cost of DR at lowest ISO.
Said, another way although I think the 67 MP sensor that Sony has made available would work well in a Leica M, it isn't too hard to imagine a different set of tradeoffs, that could result in a better sensor for most Leica M shooters, and a couple of sensors optimized to Leica M with different needs, that would be more up Leica's alley. For example, they could have a lower res, say 30 MP sensor with a base ISO of 200 and especially good high ISO performance for street shooters, and a 45 MP sensor with a base iSO of 100 and especially good low ISO performance with lots of protection of the highlights for people who want landscape capabilities. They could of course have monochrome versions of one or both of these sensors (it probably makes more sense to make a monochrome version of the 30 MP sensor, however). They might want a different sensor yet in the EV-2, with phase detect built into the sensor for focus aids. This all requires smaller batches of more differentiated sensors, which Sony might not be willing to do. Leica had something very similar to this division of sensors in the M10 series, but went away from it in the M11 series and only had the high MP cameras. I can see why Leica might prefer the multiple sensor options for the M12....Show more →
Sony already offers a variety of sensors that could differentiate the Leica modules in the way you describe. I just cannot see how Leica has the resources to financially do multiple sensors.
Sony has recently announced sensors with multiple layers that meaningfully improve dynamic range. Other recent Sony development include a new microlens and cell structure the greatly enhance autofocus performance. True Sony will likely keep the most meaningful advances for there own use for a time as they have been doing. So, maybe this built in performance handicap that has so severly damaged Nikon motivates the move to some extent.
p.2 #4 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
The only issue with the performance handicap argument is that Leica's camera tech are a generation behind on a good day so it's unlikely they're doing this to be leading edge. Might make sense for Nikon or Panasonic but unlikely for Leica.
This feels like a strategic investment driven move.
p.2 #5 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
tzhang4284 wrote:
My guess is the "cost savings" is really Gpixel paying Leica to be in their cameras or subsidizing the design costs in some way. This is a relatively cheap part and Leica's volumes are low so there's no economies of scale benefits to go with this.
It's really a shame that they're moving away from Sony sensors - every Leica sensor until they shifted to Sony was technically behind the mainstream camera brands. Now, with their leveraging Panasonic tech, they're basically at par on the SL side.
Creating a compelling reason to upgrade to camera with a lower specified sensor would be a difficult sell. I know I would not do it. The financial impact of upgrading existing users cannot be discounted. It is much easier than selling to new users.
As far as mpx count goes I think the whole model of Leica cameras benefits more from high resolution than other brands. The Q camers being fixed FL lenses gets great benefit in the form of cropping. The M camers with RF rather than TTL framing and non zooming manual lenses also benefits from this croppability. It would require a huge improvement in another area to get me to give that up.
p.2 #6 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
1bwana1 wrote:
I don't understand the going concern risk. I think all other major camera brands except Canon rely on Sony sensors. There are clear financial and technical reasons for that. Leica also changed to this likely for those same reasons. It seems to me that Leica is taking on more risk by trying to change that.
I and many here would rather not engage is such bitterness. We would rather rejoice in the new adventure in photography (...).
The Leica cameras that set the stage for all modern photography was actually based on taking risk when Ernst Leitz famously said, "My decision is final. We will take the risk." And began the production of the camera and built the company that became Leica.
p.2 #7 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
Nifty Fifty wrote:
I and many here would rather not engage is such bitterness. We would rather rejoice in the new adventure in photography (...).
The Leica cameras that set the stage for all modern photography was actually based on taking risk when Ernst Leitz famously said, "My decision is final. We will take the risk." And began the production of the camera and built the company that became Leica.
SCNR😄
Your post is clearly in response to your embarrassment in the reaction you got in other threads from me and others based on your attempt to spread negativity. Honestly, very week behaviour in my opinion.
No bitterness here just a discussion of business and risk which is an entirely different context than the other threads. I have these kinds of risk discussions regularly in my business life. I spoke to Dr Kaufmann and some of the staff involved in the project personally about this subject recently. They are aware of the risks as I discussed, and have mitigation strategies. I don't this effort raises risk to the existential level, so is reasonable to take. He is also at the same time optimistic about the possible benefits of a good outcome. With that I agree. Business is all about risks, and risk management. Dr Kaufman and his team have done a great job of stewardship with Leica. I am optimistic that will continue.
Are you developing some sort of chip on your shoulder to come over here and revive on old thread with more negativity or what? This is the third thread in just a few days where you have jumped in off topic to create negativity. Why do that? The choice to have good days is entirely yours. Go out and get some sunshine or something. We all want a good life for you.
Unfortunately for you I think you should have signed the post "Sorry I could not Help myself" SCNHM instead of "Sorry I could not resist" SCNR ,
Post some images (Berlin is a beautiful place to live) and we will enjoy them together...
p.2 #8 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
1bwana1 wrote:
Are you developing some sort of chip on your shoulder to come over here and revive on old thread with more negativity or what? This is the third thread in just a few days where you have jumped in off topic to create negativity. Why do that? The choice to have good days is entirely yours. Go out and get some sunshine or something. We all want a good life for you.
Unfortunately for you I think you should have signed the post "Sorry I could not Help myself" SCNHM instead of "Sorry I could not resist" SCNR.
Apparently, your sense of humor is quite limited. That's what I meant when I said I appreciate the ability to laugh at oneself and one's weaknesses. Furthermore, I wasn't being bitter at all when I remarked on how Leica today differs from Leica yesterday. What was there to make me bitter about that? As a Leica fanboy, it might make me bitter, but that's just a guess, since I can't really empathize with a fan.
1bwana1 wrote:
Post some images (Berlin is a beautiful place to live) and we will enjoy them together...
I always find it amusing when, as a last resort, when absolutely nothing else comes to mind, someone trots out the suggestion to show photos. Even funnier, though, is when tourists, after ticking off all of Berlin's hotspots, try to enlighten long-time residents about the life in this city is.😄
Incidentally, I've never denied that Berlin has many beautiful aspects. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have moved here over 20 years ago.😉
Be that as it may, I would never dream of snapping the ubiquitous Instagram photos in Berlin. I avoid the tourist spots as much as possible and prefer to look for the beautiful little things along the way.
The image of this unknown sleeping person here will forever remind me of the last warm summer Sunday of 2024, because the cold snap came the following day.
p.2 #10 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
Don't worry! Whenever I see your helpless attempts to provoke me with personal insults disguised as empathy, I have to chuckle at the thought that you think you're being clever.😄
p.2 #12 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
I am not sure if this is good news. When western companies pair up with Chinese companies, often we get a few good years of cooperation, then a surprise all-Chinese product in the same market segment, and then drying up of sales of the western product. I hope I am wrong, but this is my gut feeling.
p.2 #13 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
1bwana1 wrote:
Not a given. Many companies have tried to get out from under Sony. Some at great expense and reputational risk. I don't know of a success story yet. Historically it has gone the other way. The Leica/gpixel partnership must be a success to switch providers.
Blackmagic Design used Sony sensors in some of their cameras but then developed their own 12K sensor for the Ursa Mini 12K cinema camera (and I think the 12K Pyxis is also using a Blackmagic Design sensor. Some of their other cameras still use Sony sensors. They used Fairchild sensors in some of their earlier cameras.
p.2 #14 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
carstenw wrote:
I am not sure if this is good news. When western companies pair up with Chinese companies, often we get a few good years of cooperation, then a surprise all-Chinese product in the same market segment, and then drying up of sales of the western product. I hope I am wrong, but this is my gut feeling.
I know the trend of which you speak, but I think Leica has so much tied to the prestige and history of the brand...if you're a repeat Leica customer chances are you're not bargain shopping. Plus they always make limited runs so it's not like Leica's business model is dependent on selling millions of cameras like the big name brands.
p.2 #15 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
Carlo_M wrote:
I know the trend of which you speak, but I think Leica has so much tied to the prestige and history of the brand...if you're a repeat Leica customer chances are you're not bargain shopping. Plus they always make limited runs so it's not like Leica's business model is dependent on selling millions of cameras like the big name brands.
What if a Chinese company came up with a good rangefinder camera with M mount, and the same sensor, for 1/5th the price?
p.2 #16 · Leica Camera and Gpixel are jointly developing a next-generation image sensor
carstenw wrote:
What if a Chinese company came up with a good rangefinder camera with M mount, and the same sensor, for 1/5th the price?
That's exactly my point. Most people who want a "Leica" want a Leica, not a GPixel, or Oppo, or Xiaomi. Sure there's going to be a small handful of exceptions, but I'm betting it's not a statistically significant number of Leica users.
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