It’s missing a bunch of features to make it an A cam, has oddly borked h.265 still, and has settled into a solid B cam niche among its users, it seems like.
And some people are abusing it and making it live its life as a gigantic point and shoot
Seems like most people who are curious about it in the same way as I am are waiting for FW 2.0 to hit.
Timely. Brandon has been one of the biggest, most vocal supporters of the ZR and has amped up his criticisms recently. He finally got some one on one time with Nikon at NAB.
RoamingScott wrote:
Timely. Brandon has been one of the biggest, most vocal supporters of the ZR and has amped up his criticisms recently. He finally got some one on one time with Nikon at NAB.
So basically no news i.e. no firmware release coinciding with NAB.
The botched h.265 is why I have not bought one yet.
We'll see if, as the video suggests, they improve that soon or not.
Amazing that they let that slide while the h.265 on the Z6III looks just fine.
(I'm not going to buy $3,000 worth of extra CF-B cards, plus extra external drives etc just to shoot Red RAW, which looks good IMO but not better than footage from the Sonys etc.)
Thanks Rusty - I had noticed a lack of threads / comments about this camera in forums and elsewhere, this was not in reference to YouTube.
And yes, the great 32bit float audio is very valuable (though, like me, many don't record internal audio).
Sharp & detailed h.265 is crucial for many of us. I shoot outside in high D.R. situations, and very often need to crop in post. If it starts out soft and lacking detail, and then needs cropping, it's not gonna work.
ronno wrote:
Thanks Rusty - I had noticed a lack of threads / comments about this camera in forums and elsewhere, this was not in reference to YouTube.
And yes, the great 32bit float audio is very valuable; but sharp & detailed h.265 is crucial for many of us. I shoot outside in high D.R. situations, and very often need to crop in post. If it starts out soft and lacking detail, and then needs cropping, it's not gonna work.
Cheers.
I don't disagree- I don't use H.265 anymore- I find I much prefer just sucking it up and using the Red Codec-
I have a 2 TB card and I have yet to run out of space in a single outing-
If H.265 is a hard requirement, this camera would be a pass for me. It almost was initially but glad I pursued it. Red raw has really been a joy to work with and has made the exposure of a scene so much more predictably/workable in post.
Absolutely phenomenal camera, smacking cameras that are $3,000+ and but yeah, its missing some key features like open-gate, full size HDMI, and missing top/side 1/4-20 threads so rigging it, isn't as easy as say a FX3. I feel like the whole h.265 thing is odd, because I did a test between h.265, NRAW, and R3D and didn't see any differences in detail. Perhaps mine was a unicorn. I simply didnt see what others say, even when pushing higher ISOs.
I am holding out hope that they release a solid FW update fixing the h265, and hopefully add desqueeze. Those are my big beefs with my ZR.
It's still a fun camera, still gives me good stills and video, but If these things aren't addressed I'll prob swap it for a second ZF or maybe a Z5II to get something different.
PixiPhotography wrote:
Absolutely phenomenal camera, smacking cameras that are $3,000+ and but yeah, its missing some key features like open-gate, full size HDMI, and missing top/side 1/4-20 threads so rigging it, isn't as easy as say a FX3. I feel like the whole h.265 thing is odd, because I did a test between h.265, NRAW, and R3D and didn't see any differences in detail. Perhaps mine was a unicorn. I simply didnt see what others say, even when pushing higher ISOs.
There were rather convincing explanations linking the perceived softness of H.265 to under exposure due to the way compression works. So perhaps you did expose your footage well and some of the other testers didn't?
Personally I only shoot by Zr in Red raw/NRAW, fail to see the point of using this camera in lesser codec modes. I have 2x2TB cards and store the unused footage in a more compressed format just in case.
But great if Nikon can make the H.265 more usable for all.
bernardl wrote:
There were rather convincing explanations linking the perceived softness of H.265 to under exposure due to the way compression works. So perhaps you did expose your footage well and some of the other testers didn't?
Personally I only shoot by Zr in Red raw/NRAW, fail to see the point of using this camera in lesser codec modes. I have 2x2TB cards and store the unused footage in a more compressed format just in case.
But great if Nikon can make the H.265 more usable for all.
Cheers,
Bernard
Tbh, same with me. I've only shot in R3D with it, buuuut I totally understand those who need h.265, for example shooting a wedding. You'll eat right through 1-2TB card shooting in R3D or NRAW. The bitrate for both is really really high. But from what numerous sources tell us, there are more codecs coming for the Zr and this camera will definitely improve. If I were Nikon seeking to absolutely maximize sales for the Zr, I would have done the same thing. Release an absolute powerhouse for an unbeatable price.. than later on, add some more features via firmware and spike interest in it again, causing more sales. Imagine if in a years time (after release), Nikon gives us Open-Gate and Desqueeze via firmware. You'd get another wave of buyers so was it limited on purpose? Hmm
The problem is mainly present in N-Log h.265 which by default involves the sensor basically set to iso 100 and image exposed based on EI 800, so you start with three stop underexposure in order to achieve more highlight latitude. When comparing the N-Log h.265 results exposed nominally at base ISO between ZR and Z6 III, the latter is much more detailed. If SDR is used instead of N-Log, the difference is small. Most people who report h.265 on the ZR being fine have used SDR. Of course if you shoot the ZR in N-Log at EI 100-200 then also you can minimize the problem but you lose the advantage of N-Log in the highlight latitude. This is not "correct exposure" in a camera which is advertised to have a DR of 15 stops (who is believing this?)
If Nikon can improve h.265 log so that it looks more comparable with the Z6 III, then this would likely be a significant improvement in the camera and increase its market appeal. Also the promised Prores 422 LT may partially solve the problem. Finally, it is curious why the R3D NE equivalent to N-RAW Normal quality is not available is curious since they use the same basic encoding method.
bernardl wrote:
There were rather convincing explanations linking the perceived softness of H.265 to under exposure due to the way compression works. So perhaps you did expose your footage well and some of the other testers didn't?
Personally I only shoot by Zr in Red raw/NRAW, fail to see the point of using this camera in lesser codec modes. I have 2x2TB cards and store the unused footage in a more compressed format just in case.
But great if Nikon can make the H.265 more usable for all.
The h.265 is fine if you shoot in SDR. It’s the N-LOG that people have issue with. What’s funny though is that it took a Nikon/RED camera for non-Nikon users to discover how good N-RAW is. N-RAW on “normal” yields far smaller file sizes and is excellent. You can even change the .nev extension to .r3d and it opens up the RED workflow in Resolve. I always find it peculiar when people who don’t own the camera comment and tell the camera owners what it is or isn’t based on the YT reviews they’ve watched. If I don’t need raw video I often just skip N-LOG altogether and shoot 10 but SDR with a flat colour profile and with active D-Lighting set to normal. It’s about as LOG as you can get without actually shooting LOG, and the D-Lighting changes the behaviour of the metering to protect the highlights a bit. I started doing that with the original 8 bit Z6.
For stills, it’s fantastic. Basically a Z6III in image quality.
ronno wrote:
The botched h.265 is why I have not bought one yet.
We'll see if, as the video suggests, they improve that soon or not.
Amazing that they let that slide while the h.265 on the Z6III looks just fine.
(I'm not going to buy $3,000 worth of extra CF-B cards, plus extra external drives etc just to shoot Red RAW, which looks good IMO but not better than footage from the Sonys etc.)
I'm surprised you can't discern the difference between ZR and (say) FX3 output, the ZR is more detailed, including H.265. The "issue" is with the Log curve which applies excessive noise reduction. As others have pointed out, it is readily addressed using SDR with a flat curve. This also benefits by making available 3 more stops of light.
M_Black wrote:
The h.265 is fine if you shoot in SDR. It’s the N-LOG that people have issue with. What’s funny though is that it took a Nikon/RED camera for non-Nikon users to discover how good N-RAW is. N-RAW on “normal” yields far smaller file sizes and is excellent. You can even change the .nev extension to .r3d and it opens up the RED workflow in Resolve. I always find it peculiar when people who don’t own the camera comment and tell the camera owners what it is or isn’t based on the YT reviews they’ve watched. If I don’t need raw video I often just skip N-LOG altogether and shoot 10 but SDR with a flat colour profile and with active D-Lighting set to normal. It’s about as LOG as you can get without actually shooting LOG, and the D-Lighting changes the behaviour of the metering to protect the highlights a bit. I started doing that with the original 8 bit Z6.
For stills, it’s fantastic. Basically a Z6III in image quality. ...Show more →
With you on this. Its such a little powerhouse: 7 codecs, 3 of which are RAW, and at least 2 more in the works (ProRes LT and a H.265), 8-bit, 10-bit, and 12-bit at your choosing and the rumored firmware for recording to SSD via USB-C. Sweeeeeet
M_Black wrote:
The h.265 is fine if you shoot in SDR. It’s the N-LOG that people have issue with. What’s funny though is that it took a Nikon/RED camera for non-Nikon users to discover how good N-RAW is. N-RAW on “normal” yields far smaller file sizes and is excellent. You can even change the .nev extension to .r3d and it opens up the RED workflow in Resolve. I always find it peculiar when people who don’t own the camera comment and tell the camera owners what it is or isn’t based on the YT reviews they’ve watched. If I don’t need raw video I often just skip N-LOG altogether and shoot 10 but SDR with a flat colour profile and with active D-Lighting set to normal. It’s about as LOG as you can get without actually shooting LOG, and the D-Lighting changes the behaviour of the metering to protect the highlights a bit. I started doing that with the original 8 bit Z6.
For stills, it’s fantastic. Basically a Z6III in image quality. ...Show more →
That is interesting, I had not thought of adding D-Lighting into the mix. I will try that on my other Z cameras. Personally I feel the ZR is the most interesting camera on the market today. The only thing stopping me from buying one is saving for a Z9ii.
I’ve gone through a rollercoaster of emotions with mine. At first it was all love but now certain realities have set in. I have moments where I still love it, then other times I can’t be bothered to touch it. I’m still holding out, hoping that new firmware addresses some of its pain points, most of which have already been mentioned.
