p.2 #1 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
RustyBug wrote:
John,
Your perspective about being able to differentiate at elite levels, reminds me of exceptional musicians and master piano tuners. I don't have that refined of an ear, and likely never will ... never developed it to those levels.
The degree of refinement that the human physiological response can yield is staggering in certain regard. Yet, not all folks attain those levels. Case in point, my palette for wine advanced over certain decades of time, but when I've spent more $$$ (mulitple occasions over the years) ... I never got an OMG, this is SO MUCH BETTER. Likely, my palette just never refined to a level to differentiate what those presented.
That said ... don't forget that with your APO lenses, it is about what is NOT THERE (i.e. aberrations), so you aren't looking for something more, you are experiencing (visual sensory) the absence of. That absence doesn't always come across the same way as something that is OMG 3X sharper, etc.
Contrast that with the fact that some folks actually LIKE those very aberrations that the APO's are avoiding / correcting for.
Often times we are thinking in terms of "more" as it equates to "better", but in the case of the APO, we are likely in the realm of "less", in certain regard.
Bottom line ... if you like it, shoot it.
No requirement to label it, nor you.
Was that the SL3-S (24MP) or the SL3 (61MP). Your OP kinda looks like you mention both....Show more →
Good points about APO lenses and their 'perfection.' I do actually have the same feeling about the 50mm APO Voigtlander I have for M mount, which is nice, but not special to me. When I ponder which 50mm M lens to keep, the Sonnar comes out on top instead. For now, though, I keep all of them.
I used the SL3s, not the SL3. I figure they're the same size and weight and resolution doesn't make a difference to how an image renders on my monitor, unless I really push it.
p.2 #2 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
stgrove wrote:
OP.
You might want to try the 24MP Nikon Z5II with any M lens and the Techart M-Z AF adapter. So glad I sold my L kit with 5 APO lenses plus other Leica SL lenses and SL3 and SL3S.
Since owning that setup I have not used any M camera since arrival the of that setup, thus leaving me in a laid back creative mood. Lovely feeling.
I tried the M lenses with the Nikon Z6III and the TechArt adapter, but I'm now switching to the Canon R8 and the new Shoten adapter, largely because I already have a wide range of Canon stuff and only had Nikon for the M lenses. I do like that R8.
p.2 #3 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
1bwana1 wrote:
And of course we must recognize that it is the final small increase in performance that is the most difficult and expensive to acheive. This is true in many areas of performance. In racing those last few fractions of a second cost a crazy amount of money. The average driver will never be able to detect them. But in talented hands. at the end of the day, they are all that really matter to outcome.
And there we would come back to the 'am I worthy' part of my post. How many of us do really notice the difference and could point it out to a novice in a way that the novice understands what we're saying? How many of us see the difference because we've just spent a small fortune on a lens?
And, above all that, why is it that our hobby doesn't offer any crazy outliers, like a perfect lens for $200,000 or something like that? Almost every hobby or pastime has over-the-top offerings for truly rich people, but photography doesn't.
p.2 #4 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
rico wrote:
No, you were just unlucky being assigned that Leica 50. The best 50mm lens in the world is the Viltrox 50 Air, and I'm not kidding. For under $200, you get a standard prime that makes all competitors look ordinary, or worse.
I have Viltrox lenses for Fuji and Nikon, but will be selling them, since I'm abandoning Fuji X and Nikon. I'll be left with MFT, Canon and Fuji GFX, so no Viltrox for me. I do like the lenses I have for the price/weight/performance combo they offer.
I have the Canon RF 50mm f/1.2 and truly love that lens. It's my main lens when shooting in the studio nowadays. Too large and heavy to really lug around when walking in town.
p.2 #5 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
johnvanr wrote:
So, I attended a couple of photowalks at a local store last week, grabbing the chance to try some gear on a continent where gear rentals aren't easy.
One of those walks was with a Leica SL3s with new the 50mm APO f/2 lens.
Upon uploading the images onto my computer and checking them out, I didn't notice anything special and didn't give it any thought, since I had already decided that the SL3 is still too large and heavy for me. Only later did I realize that I had used what some say is the absolute summum of 50mm lenses. So, I went back to my computer and looked at the files again.
And I still didn't notice anything special, as in special beyond it being a good lens.
Granted, I hadn't given this lens a thorough workout. Still, I see the difference between a so-so lens and a good lens and I highly value the rendering of Zeiss lenses and other top glass, compared to run-of-the-mill lenses. And I do mostly have lenses that are considered very good to excellent.
So, this left me wondering where I fall on the spectrum of lens aficionados. Is this like HIFI, where some audiophiles apparently can tell the difference between $10,000 and $20,000 speakers, but I probably would be lost completely above $1,000? Is there a threshold where a person just doesn't see 'it' anymore?
Note: this is separate from whether something is a good image or not. That can be taken with any lens. Kirk Tuck, for example, owns the above lens and when he still published his blog, he constantly praised this lens, while sharing his usual images of mannequins and street scenes in Austin, TX, not that different from my shots in Vienna (sans the mannequins)....Show more →
I have the SL3-S and a few SL APO lenses including the 50mm APO SL mentioned. Not sure what you took photos of but I think what they are really good at is portraits and street photography wide open. I find that skin tones are handled really really well and there's a clarity and sharpness to the images that you can't replicate with lesser lenses. If you're using them to take pictures of landscapes and buildings at infinity, I don't think you will see much of a difference. However for near field objects (e.g. cars, people), the SL APOs create a very nice look - high contrast, great colors, and very sharp.
I've compared my 24mp SL APO images to my 61mp M11 + M APO images and I think the SL APO images still come out ahead. Overall, they're well worth the money used - not sure I can ever justify the new prices but at around $2500 to $3k each based on used prices, they earn their keep over Sigma and Panasonic alternatives.
p.2 #6 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
stgrove wrote:
OP.
You might want to try the 24MP Nikon Z5II with any M lens and the Techart M-Z AF adapter. So glad I sold my L kit with 5 APO lenses plus other Leica SL lenses and SL3 and SL3S.
Since owning that setup I have not used any M camera since arrival the of that setup, thus leaving me in a laid back creative mood. Lovely feeling.
My dream camera for me is a hybrid of Nikon Zf und Leica M EV1. A kind of Nikon Zf with M-mount would be ideal for me (plus with the Nikon price tag). Wishful thinking, I know!
p.2 #7 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
rico wrote:
No, you were just unlucky being assigned that Leica 50. The best 50mm lens in the world is the Viltrox 50 Air, and I'm not kidding. For under $200, you get a standard prime that makes all competitors look ordinary, or worse.
better than the Leica? the Leica Summicron APO SL? also better than the Voigtlander APO Z? and you know this how? because that's a bold claim. i'm not saying the lens isn't stellar but let's not resort to hyperbole without data and/or images to back such claim.
i quickly looked it up and it doesn't even have a floating element design, which means it will have some compromises near MFD or at near infinity, which the Leica APO does not.
that said, i'm going to have to see this for myself. I ordered one and I should have the 50 Air by tomorrow.
EDIT: the 50 Air has 0.5m MFD while the Leica has 0.35m MFD .. which checks out since it doesn't have floating element...which also probably means that its weakness is close to MFD...
p.2 #8 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
1bwana1 wrote:
And of course we must recognize that it is the final small increase in performance that is the most difficult and expensive to acheive.
But in photography as our point of interest here, do you need to spend more than the X2D2+lenses on Leica gear and lenses where you might achieve less by spending more? This is especially true with the M bodies these days, but also true with the SL system from my experiences.
As for cars I had the original Ruf Yellowbird for many years and regularly beat the F40 every time we were on track together. The "Green Hell" was my favorite place to beat them where I have racked up over 5000 km on that circuit.
p.2 #9 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
johnvanr wrote:
And, above all that, why is it that our hobby doesn't offer any crazy outliers, like a perfect lens for $200,000 or something like that? Almost every hobby or pastime has over-the-top offerings for truly rich people, but photography doesn't.
I’m grateful that we don’t have the equivalent of the $2000 power cable nonsense. And aren’t afraid of A/B testing.
p.2 #10 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
1bwana1 wrote:
Sure. For me my SL3 camera is my studio camera. I use it with strobes for portraits and other studio work.
It is also my people and event system. Anytime I want to quickly acheive critical focus on the pupil of the eye. This could be natural light or again with strobes.
When I want the highest sharpness and fewest aberrations I use the APO-SL lenses. Other times I use more character rich lenses going all the way to very old Leica lenses with unique rendering. But wide open I find the rendering and OOF fall of from the APO-SL lenses very attractive too.
I use the SL3 and APO when shooting landscapes and cityscapes. Also when documenting the amazing paintings and in place frescos sculptures here in Italy. Uses where I want across the frame sharpness and lack of abberations. Especially true when planning to print large.
I use my SL3 and APO-SL 50mm to scan my film negatives. It's detail, flat field, and lack of abberations are very valuable for this use. The lens basically dissappears and gives me 60mpx scans that accurately captures what is on the negative.
Stopped down there are lenses that can produce result close to the APO-SL lenses. But wide open I have not found others that can compete edge to edge for sharpness and lack of abberations. Check the MTF charts for objective confirmation of this. Understand that Leica tests and publishes it's charts at higher line pairs numbers than other manufactures normally do.
There are my core optical use cases for the APO-SL lenses I have. As a system I also find the having the entire line housed in identical cases provides benefits in handling consistency and perfect sharing of accessories like hoods and filters.
Like all of our gear the APO-SL lenses are tools with certain strengths. I find value in these strengths. Others may not. I will say that that value is difficult to justify at full retail prices. Fortunately the used prices fall strongly. Then hold value very well. I only buy Leica SL gear used which puts it in line value wise with other manufactures high end gear. I averaged less than $2,500 for each of my APO-SL lenses and $4,000 for the SL3 body. I consider this a reasonable performance value. Again, others will disagree.
For those interested in exploring the APO-SL technology in detail here is an excellent presentation by the design engineer Peter Karbe....Show more →
Thanks for doing this! I can easily see the appeal for use cases like cityscapes. Other ones like scanning film I have no experience with. As far as portraits goes I probably have a different point of view. Within the SL system I prefer the 24-90 to the APO lenses. The APOs render well but are slightly more clinical in my opinion. I personally find the rendering of the 24-90 more pleasant for faces and people in general.
p.2 #11 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
johnvanr wrote:
And, above all that, why is it that our hobby doesn't offer any crazy outliers, like a perfect lens for $200,000 or something like that? Almost every hobby or pastime has over-the-top offerings for truly rich people, but photography doesn't.
not quite $200,000 but _very_ expensive.. ALPA lenses (the new generation to be paired with the equally unobtainium ALPA camera and Phase One backs). although it's rarely mentioned (even on the internets) because of how ungodly expensive they are...but apparently they are very well corrected even when shifted/tilted.
p.2 #12 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
dalegaspi wrote:
not quite $200,000 but _very_ expensive.. ALPA lenses (the new generation to be paired with the equally unobtainium ALPA camera and Phase One backs). although it's rarely mentioned (even on the internets) because of how ungodly expensive they are...but apparently they are very well corrected even when shifted/tilted.
I owned this setup a few years back with 5 Rodenstock and Schneider lenses on an Alpa with Phase IQ150 back and I must say, it was a delight to use when I got it right even though it slowed me down to where snails could beat me for each capture.
p.2 #13 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
mgscheu wrote:
I’m grateful that we don’t have the equivalent of the $2000 power cable nonsense. And aren’t afraid of A/B testing.
Oh, I wouldn’t be interested or be able to afford it, but isn’t it strange how there’s no Koenigsegg or Bugatti equivalent in our sphere, something completely over the top for those who can afford it?
p.2 #14 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
johnvanr wrote:
And, above all that, why is it that our hobby doesn't offer any crazy outliers, like a perfect lens for $200,000 or something like that? Almost every hobby or pastime has over-the-top offerings for truly rich people, but photography doesn't.
As Fred said above, there is no "Perfect" lens, but there are some premium lenses and cameras from makers like LargeSense, Phase One, Rodenstock, Leitz, ARRI, Zeiss, Cooke, Angénieux, Fujinon, ALPA, Sinar, Cambo etc. Some lenses are far more than $200,000.
As far as noticing the difference between lenses and explaining these differences to others, well it's all there to explore and learn, right on the screen or the print. Learning about lens aberrations and optical corrections in the photon / electron interactions and phase transitions at air / glass / coating boundaries and all the engineering that produces apochromats is fascinating. Apochromats also yield real world results, not imaginary differences wishfully related to price spent. Comparing one or more lenses might be easier than evaluating one alone, to detect differences.
It sure is less expensive if one doesn't know or care about the differences, though.
p.2 #15 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
johnvanr wrote:
Oh, I wouldn’t be interested or be able to afford it, but isn’t it strange how there’s no Koenigsegg or Bugatti equivalent in our sphere, something completely over the top for those who can afford it?
Koenigsegg or Bugatti equivalent in our sphere, IMO = Leica and Hasselblad. For the purposes of this thread's discussion, the SL APO Prime Technology and price specifically.
I am sure others don't agree, but personally I would not spend Leica SL APO Prime money for use on a 24MPs only FF camera.
p.2 #16 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
To each his own. 100 people can view an image (digital or print) and have 100 different impressions of it. What matters is how you feel about it and if it doesn't float your boat, move on. For me it's about more than just the IQ. It's a system that fits what I like about photography: ergonomics, control, and integration of components that just work for me.
I spent the last 15 years trying almost every brand and enjoyed some aspect of every kit that I had, using the equity in each to move to the next, but ultimately I decided to stay with the SL system. Why anyone on FM feels the need to question that is beyond my comprehension.
p.2 #17 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
AndereObjektiv wrote:
As Fred said above, there is no "Perfect" lens, but there are some premium lenses and cameras from makers like LargeSense, Phase One, Rodenstock, Leitz, ARRI, Zeiss, Cooke, Angénieux, Fujinon, ALPA, Sinar, Cambo etc. Some lenses are far more than $200,000.
As far as noticing the difference between lenses and explaining these differences to others, well it's all there to explore and learn, right on the screen or the print. Learning about lens aberrations and optical corrections in the photon / electron interactions and phase transitions at air / glass / coating boundaries and all the engineering that produces apochromats is fascinating. Apochromats also yield real world results, not imaginary differences wishfully related to price spent. Comparing one or more lenses might be easier than evaluating one alone, to detect differences.
It sure is less expensive if one doesn't know or care about the differences, though.
p.2 #18 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
LBJ2 wrote:
Koenigsegg or Bugatti equivalent in our sphere, IMO = Leica and Hasselblad. For the purposes of this thread's discussion, the SL APO Prime Technology and price specifically.
I am sure others don't agree, but personally I would not spend Leica SL APO Prime money for use on a 24MPs only FF camera.
Nah, Leica and Hasselblad are merely Porsche territory.
p.2 #19 · Am I not worthy - I am not worthy...of stellar lenses
stgrove wrote:
But in photography as our point of interest here, do you need to spend more than the X2D2+lenses on Leica gear and lenses where you might achieve less by spending more? This is especially true with the M bodies these days, but also true with the SL system from my experiences.
As for cars I had the original Ruf Yellowbird for many years and regularly beat the F40 every time we were on track together. The "Green Hell" was my favorite place to beat them where I have racked up over 5000 km on that circuit.
Well since I bought my entire SL3 kit used I spent no where near the Hasselblad new prices. In fact since there are less lenses in my SL3 kit the cost was more than covered by my high resolution orientated Sony kit I was replacing.
My M kit is my favorite and most used setup. I have no APO lenses for it. It serves a different purpose for me. Absolute IQ is not my goal most of the time. But when it is I grab my SL3 and APO-SL lenses. The fact that my SL3 also makes and ideal platform to shoot every lens I have going back to very vintage screw mount lenses is also a determinant in way I own the SL3. It is a wonderful EVF driven manual focus platform.
I have also enjoyed the ring many times. It is a special place.
Was that the SL3-S (24MP) or the SL3 (61MP). Your OP kinda looks like you mention both.