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which lens has the most 3D POP?

  
 
j4nu
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p.102 #1 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


RustyBug wrote:
The salient point is (imo) that the human eye (lens) functions with the similar properties of optical physics as lenses. The CoC / DOF / rate of transition / blur are all pieces of the depth / spatial cues. There is the difference in terms of accommodation that the eye / brain relationship offers vs. our beloved optics. The irony here being that since the accommodation of the eye / brain varies among individuals, it also infers that different people will have different abilities to discern / respond to those physiological cues.


Well, I'd say we have a pair of eyes to help with that 3d/depth processing in our brain. So, looking at a flat image of a scene is not the same as looking at the same scene with our own eyes...




Dec 06, 2025 at 08:33 PM
RustyBug
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p.102 #2 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


j4nu wrote:
Well, I'd say we have a pair of eyes to help with that 3d/depth processing in our brain. So, looking at a flat image of a scene is not the same as looking at the same scene with our own eyes...



Understood and agreed.


That's why the term "Trompe' Loeil" (fool the eye) is the (imo) point that we are ascribing visual cues in a 2D medium that enacts that processing in our brains for physiological response cues related to spatial / depth dimension. This has been a goal of (some) 2D image makers for centuries (in varying degree and discipline), continuing to present day. Lens designers make such decisions in their designs toward this to varying degrees. Some chase it significantly, others not so much. Some aspire for more abrupt transitions, some aspire for longer / slower transitions.

As noted, the lens influence is but one component.

Yet, even in the literal, physical, 3D world ... different people have different levels of depth perception acuity and precision that their eye / brain combination can assess and discern (in addition to, accommodation). From automobile accidents to pilots landing on aircraft carriers to high level athletes to bookworms to many, different walks of life. Even basic optometry exams (or advanced ones, DMV, etc.) include efforts to differentiate how well adapted folks are with (some via 2D medium, even) engaging spatial cues to discern which is "projecting forward", etc. Some immediately see it, others see it with a little study, others struggle to see it, and yet others don't see it at all, ever.

Personally, I can't see the seams on a 100 mph fastball, or a sweeping curveball, coming at me. But, there are folks who can.

Point being, the threshold of detection for overt vs. nuanced physiological response cues isn't the same in everyone, either. So, the matter of those cues existing on a 2D plane, to emulate and initiate 3D physiological response has a reliance on a multitude of factors. The OP topic was regarding the optic of the camera lens, but the optic / brain / accommodation of the human lens is in play, also ... as it picks up those cues from our 3D world, and projects them (per lens designer and photographer utilization preferences) onto our beloved 2D medium. The reliance then shifts onto our brain's ability to reverse engineer / decipher them to yield the effects of Trompe' Loeil ... i.e. spatial depth cues as 3D-ishness, or abruptly transitioning as "pop".






Dec 06, 2025 at 09:01 PM
Nifty Fifty
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p.102 #3 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


mudlake wrote:
This picture is beautiful! Very very nice. 👊

Thank you for the compliment. For me, it's a lovely reminder of a wonderful week's holiday in Provence.
Those were wonderful times when neither "3D pop" nor "bokeh" were part of my vocabulary, and I never gave a thought to MP, CA, or color science. Goodness, I didn't even have a PC 15 years ago. What a golden age!

Edited on Dec 07, 2025 at 03:11 AM · View previous versions



Dec 07, 2025 at 02:22 AM
jeffersoncasey
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p.102 #4 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


This is the kind of 3D dimensionality (or whatever it is) I always look for, a nice stretch on both end of histogram (in digital) with smooth transition in between. Well done!

Nifty Fifty wrote:
Ah, if analog photos are being posted here, I have one too. Taken with a Rolleiflex 6x6 and Zeiss Planar 2.8 80. Scan from a baryta print on Fomatone MG FB and slightly toned with sulfur.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54966916872_8ec427d132_b.jpgS (31) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr




Dec 07, 2025 at 02:56 AM
Nifty Fifty
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p.102 #5 · which lens has the most 3D POP?




jeffersoncasey wrote:
This is the kind of 3D dimensionality (or whatever it is) I always look for, a nice stretch on both end of histogram (in digital) with smooth transition in between. Well done!


Thanks for the compliment, even though I have no idea what depth (whether present or absent) has to do with the histogram. But I don't need to.
Here are three more pictures from the same day.

HP5+ in the Rolleiflex with a Planar 2.8 80.
Scans from prints on Fomatone MG FB.

S (30) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

S (35) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

S (34) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr



Dec 07, 2025 at 04:46 AM
jeffersoncasey
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p.102 #6 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Please don't mind my words, just a way to convey about the contrast. I admire the tonality of the series, without discounting the photographers ability to compose and capture. 😁

Nifty Fifty wrote:
Thanks for the compliment, even though I have no idea what depth (whether present or absent) has to do with the histogram. But I don't need to.
Here are three more pictures from the same day.

HP5+ in the Rolleiflex with a Planar 2.8 80.
Scans from prints on Fomatone MG FB.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968928074_ffd79d3a1a_b.jpgS (30) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968670836_6ec5738199_b.jpgS (35) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968973750_a222aba9e1_b.jpgS (34) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr




Dec 07, 2025 at 05:41 AM
Nifty Fifty
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p.102 #7 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Why should I hold your words against you? There's absolutely no reason to. Quite the contrary.


Dec 07, 2025 at 06:04 AM
gammarART
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p.102 #8 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Incredible photos – simply wow 🤩

Nifty Fifty wrote:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968928074_ffd79d3a1a_b.jpgS (30) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968670836_6ec5738199_b.jpgS (35) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968973750_a222aba9e1_b.jpgS (34) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr





Dec 07, 2025 at 06:09 AM
Nifty Fifty
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p.102 #9 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


jeffersoncasey wrote:
Please don't mind my words, just a way to convey about the contrast. I admire the tonality of the series

However, it must be said that the tonal values ​​of the final print depend crucially on the processing during enlargement. A perfect negative, simply printed straight, is rather the exception, unless you're working with controlled lighting or individual negatives, no matter how well you control your negative processing. At the time the photograph in question was taken, I was still tinkering around quite aimlessly in this regard (the restriction to ONE film type with densitometry tested development came later), and so the contact print shown below illustrates quite well what a straight print on grade 3 would have looked like. Back then, all of this required a certain amount of experience, since when printing you had nothing to judge other than the negative and, if applicable, the contact print, from which you had to estimate what you were creating under the enlarger. Unlike today, of course, you couldn't see, control, or undo these adjustments. Or to put it another way, the true nature of the work only became apparent once the print was developed and the light could be switched on. Strictly speaking, it could only be properly assessed once the print was fixed, washed, and dried over night, because the highlights brightened somewhat during washing, and the entire print darkened considerably during drying. This additional darkening couldn't simply be compensated for by a shorter exposure time based on a fixed factor. It was quite demanding if you wanted to get it just right. And it could be quite nerve-wracking at times.On the other hand, it was incredibly fun, and you ended up with a unique piece that you had handcrafted yourself from start to finish. That was fantastic, and I completely miss that in digital photography.
Incidentally, while the highlights in the print are also overexposed, they don't appear as severely blown out as in the scan. Nothing beats a physical original.😉

20251207_122539 by Werner Wurst, on Flickr

Edited on Dec 07, 2025 at 07:21 AM · View previous versions



Dec 07, 2025 at 07:02 AM
Nifty Fifty
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p.102 #10 · which lens has the most 3D POP?




gammarART wrote:
Incredible photos – simply wow 🤩


Thanks!



Dec 07, 2025 at 07:03 AM
 


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Nifty Fifty
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p.102 #11 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Okay, this doesn't exactly fit with the 3D pop theme, but it does relate to the posted images, but it's certainly no less interesting than the discussion that's been going on in circles here for years. Anyway. So that people who are familiar with Lightroom but not so much with Darkroom can get an idea of ​​the "good old days," here's a glimpse into my former bathroom darkroom.😇

D1 by Werner Wurst, on Flickr

20210101_154751_1 by Werner Wurst, on Flickr



Dec 07, 2025 at 07:40 AM
RustyBug
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p.102 #12 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Nifty Fifty wrote:
Okay, this doesn't exactly fit with the 3D pop theme


Actually, it does ... it points out that there are more than "just the lens" contribution to the entire process (which has been mentioned elsewhere), and represents a reveal to the amount that the lens brings to the table is also a "starting point", not necessarily the "magic" ending point (This thread OP was specific to the optical contribution, but the broader context / question of how / why overall does include the processing.) ... yet, it is a cumulative process (in which, the lens isn't to be fully dismissed, either), that the starting > ending points are intertwined, and a deft hand throughout all aspects of the process are warranted for optimal. The light sets up the glass, the glass sets up the processing, the processing sets up the print (final product).

Within the context of the OP (i.e. optical contribution), the Planar was a dandy optic to put you in a good position to take the reins from there, as that tonality, etc. was being expanded / developed to deliver the cues as you wanted them to be viewed (and perceived) ... which you did so, nicely.

Different optics (imo) put you in different positions, en route to landing where you want to be.








Dec 07, 2025 at 09:39 AM
RustyBug
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p.102 #13 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


j4nu wrote:
Well, I'd say we have a pair of eyes to help with that 3d/depth processing in our brain. So, looking at a flat image of a scene is not the same as looking at the same scene with our own eyes...



An interesting link that expands on the differences in acuity that people can have and how that equates to resolving capability. I find it interesting that in the development of the math from the arc, the number(s) that are derived correlate to 40 lpmm, and other numbers that are consistent with certain standards, and is somewhat presented in the context of cinema vs. non-cinema. This contrasted with human vision ranges to detect micro-contrast are variable.

With "normal" at 20/20 and some at 20/12 (I'm between 12-15 ... well, 800 actually, but corrected to 20/15 or better, with help from doc and the lab), with a few rare at 20/8 ... it suggests that the ability to differentiate the micro-contrasts between lenses greater than 30 lpmm may not be detectable for all individuals. Thus, not everyone picks up on all the cues, the same way, and if 20/20 is "normal", there are those individuals, also who may be less acute than normal (20/25, etc.).

I've often found it interesting how many lens mfr's only test / present to 30 lpmm data, while others present to 40 lpmm. In the realm of "hmmm, why's that" ... I think the article gives us a clue wrt to average vs. exceptional visual acuity targets, that folks can differentiate. It doesn't state so empirically, but I think it is a reasonable extrapolation to consider. That, and the cinema vs. non-cinema considerations referenced / inferred.

https://wolfcrow.com/what-is-the-resolution-of-the-human-eye-and-do-cinema-cameras-need-more-than-8k/



Dec 07, 2025 at 10:24 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.102 #14 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


The cycle of trying/testing was much long back then. Today, we still make guesses and rely on hunches in post, tryinghtenings to see how they work, but the feedback loop is way faster.

But now as then, there aren’t any quick and easy fixes or formulas that automatically produce ideal results, and there is a lot of failure and learning along the way.

Your post demonstrates (102 pages later, yet again) that the significant factors that produce good, effective images are mostly about vision, technique, and understanding and application of knowledge about how visual imagery works.

No one say s that there are no differences between lenses, but the hope that some magical lens will lead to a print like those shared here is going to be in vain. I have no idea what lens you used, nor do I care — the images simply work. And it is all that other stuff — a good model, a thoughtful pose, composition, light, and working the image in post — that make them work.

It is easier to prattle on about the search for some perfect technology that will be The Answer To All Things, but the reality is that once your gear gets past a level of technological competence, the tiny differences between Thing A and Thing B are essentially background noise… and what matters is how you see and how you bring that vision to life.

Nifty Fifty wrote:
However, it must be said that the tonal values ​​of the final print depend crucially on the processing during enlargement. A perfect negative, simply printed straight, is rather the exception, unless you're working with controlled lighting or individual negatives, no matter how well you control your negative processing. At the time the photograph in question was taken, I was still tinkering around quite aimlessly in this regard (the restriction to ONE film type with densitometry tested development came later), and so the contact print shown below illustrates quite well what a straight print on grade 3 would have looked
...Show more




Dec 07, 2025 at 11:23 AM
bmike-vt
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p.102 #15 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


Posted to another thread, but at 2034 responses this fits here:

I love reading these theoretical threads that devolve into cheap Tele-novella fictions with rivalries, name calling, based and baseless accusations… at some point I should cancel my streaming subscriptions and just read various forum posts.

‘hammerguy1957: look, the only real hammer is a classic Estwing … wooden handles suck and should be relegated to the the dustbin of history’

‘technoframer-xoxo: look hammerguy1957, I wanna see you frame a house without a Paslode XPro… it can fire 300 nails per second and it has that AI firing chip now - it anticipates the best moment to fire as you hold down the trigger halfway. Try that with your hammer from the Iron Age!!!’

‘Moderator: guys just a reminder to keep it civil in here.’

‘WaldenPond15348!: you guys are both full of crap, a real carpenter uses various wooden handled hammers - from framers to finishers in various weights depending on the task at hand. The wood lets you feel a deep connection with your work and it’s the brain behind the hammer that is the most important. With a wooden handle you suffer less fatigue throughout the day and because you have a collection of them in various weights you can select the right tool for the job.’

‘SteelersForLifeFan: it’s bullshit that you guys still frame houses with wood! Swinging hammers or pulling the trigger on a nail gun is so last century. Get with the program dudes. Steel framing even for residential homes is the future. Leave the trees for the squirrels and the birds.’

‘Moderator: time to lock this one up, don’t you guys have any hobbies like photography or knitting or something?’



Dec 07, 2025 at 11:32 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.102 #16 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


bmike-vt wrote:
‘Moderator: time to lock this one up…


+1



Dec 07, 2025 at 12:10 PM
evanhanded
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p.102 #17 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


mudlake wrote:
Got it. You didn't do one bit of research on your own about how to shoot a handgun. I didn't misread your post when you stated, "Yeah...nope. Accepting a blurry target is a bad idea." Admitting you are ignorant about a subject isn't anything to be ashamed of. The older I get the more I understand that I don't know much about anything. And I read 2-3 books on various topics a week. Peace.


Wrong again. You did misread my post. And you're wrong about how to shoot a gun. The first rule of shooting any weapon is to identify your target. It had better not look blurry.



Dec 07, 2025 at 12:18 PM
OregonSun
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p.102 #18 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


bmike-vt wrote:
Posted to another thread, but at 2034 responses this fits here:

I love reading these theoretical threads that devolve into cheap Tele-novella fictions with rivalries, name calling, based and baseless accusations… at some point I should cancel my streaming subscriptions and just read various forum posts.

‘hammerguy1957: look, the only real hammer is a classic Estwing … wooden handles suck and should be relegated to the the dustbin of history’

‘technoframer-xoxo: look hammerguy1957, I wanna see you frame a house without a Paslode XPro… it can fire 300 nails per second and it has that AI firing chip now - it anticipates the
...Show more

No one is forcing you to read them

I think the images and discussion thereof in this thread are interesting, I just skip over all the BS or sometimes read it for laughs.



Dec 07, 2025 at 12:32 PM
RustyBug
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p.102 #19 · which lens has the most 3D POP?


evanhanded wrote:
Wrong again. You did misread my post. And you're wrong about how to shoot a gun. The first rule of shooting any weapon is to identify your target. It had better not look blurry.



But one of numerous potential references. The interesting point is that the video presents "switching" as something beginners do, vs. Olympic talent, that holds their sight, blur included. That's not to suggest who is / isn't a beginner ... just that there are those who indeed, do hold their focus on the sights (allowing target blur) ... and they include shooters at the highest level(s) in the world.

The point regarding our binary vision (made elsewhere) requires additional "reprocessing" time for making the switch, parallax variance for the different distances, notwithstanding. Hence, the presented variance in grouping. Sure, the video is a bit crude in presentation, but the principle is duly noted. While not mentioned, it also is correlated to wobble control.

I suppose, however ... if you like ... you can categorize this as more "appeal to authority".

It may be that someone prefers "switching" ... but, it's not generally, regarded as proper training. This thread is the first time I've ever heard of anyone advocating for "switching" as being good technique. But, if you're shooting 100% X's by doing it, good job.

I'd just never advocate, nor train someone that way. Nor, have I ever heard of anyone else advocating / training folks to utilize "switching" as a means for improving their marksmanship.

YMMV

https://www.foresightshooting.com/where-do-olympic-shooters/



Dec 07, 2025 at 12:48 PM
mudlake
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p.102 #20 · which lens has the most 3D POP?




Nifty Fifty wrote:
Thanks for the compliment, even though I have no idea what depth (whether present or absent) has to do with the histogram. But I don't need to.
Here are three more pictures from the same day.

HP5+ in the Rolleiflex with a Planar 2.8 80.
Scans from prints on Fomatone MG FB.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968928074_ffd79d3a1a_b.jpgS (30) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968670836_6ec5738199_b.jpgS (35) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr
.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54968973750_a222aba9e1_b.jpgS (34) by Werner Wurst, on Flickr


Once again, these images are incredibly beautiful. Your subject is lovely.



Dec 07, 2025 at 01:27 PM
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