SlowDriver wrote:
Any indication that this is happening? S-mount or a completely new mount?
I only have info from one dealer that S4 is in design for a while. However, no further info such as form or feature was given. I personally think it must be a MILC given this is the market trend that Leica have no choice to follow to make $$$$. M11 give me hint that 100M sensor is highly possible given they two share the same technology. It will be interesting to see in 4X3 format S. Multi-resolution will be a key feature to seal the deal. For me, even 60M is too much for someone love to shoot.
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RustyBug wrote:
I'm assuming you are referring to EVF / Tilt.
Is there anything else you meant by "add on"?
That and 60M sensor, E shutter for maximize the resolution etc...
zhangyue wrote:
I can’t live without tilt EVF now.
The GFX 50S did the same thing to me. It's such a wonderful tool, a tiltable (and rotatable!) viewfinder.
zhangyue wrote:
Shooting at 18MP at ISO 64, you will have about 1.5 stop more DR than M10. If gentler film like rendering meanings Highlight without clipping, yes, M11 will help you achieve that. If you found you mostly shooting at ISO400, then the difference is negligible. If you are not interested in all those M11 EVF/LV features, then you may well save cost from buying a "slower" shutter M11.
Depend on what ISO you found you mostly shooting, The difference is mainly at ISO64 (about 1.5stop), than at ISO200 (about 1 stop). at ISO400, it almost is a wash already. General speaking, having a high DR sensor is always helpful to have wide shooting envelop, to have better tolerance for exposure error.
Based on what I have seen your images (they are wonderful), I feel the answer is not a clear cut At one hand, you usually shooting high contrast BW under high DR harsh light. This is the case really challenge sensor DR. However, you seems prefer high contrast look without worry too much about black losing detail. Your style is similar to Daidō Moriyama. I think the least worry about his image is DR Is he mostly using P&S or GR?
One thing I want to emphasis is for modern digital photography, if you want maximize DR capture, there is no highlight recover or shadow recover anymore and there is no "correct" exposure anymore. The only correct exposure to maximize the DR is the exposure that keep whitest white and darkest black in a single exposure. Let RAW develop to deal with "correct" exposure with tone mapping. This is a very important concept.
For example, you can think this way: for M11, you can simple default to underexpose 1.5 stop at ISO64 to get same images as M10 but there is extra 1.5 stop highlight room for you to play with. That is benefit M11 will bring you if you feel it is needed.
Hope the concept is clear to you and this helps you one way or the other. ...Show more →
The ISO setting matters to DR but not the resolution you choose. It's just marketing because shooting at 18MP thinking you are getting higher DR is just not the case. It's the same as shooting at 60MP and downsampling the file to 18MP in post. In fact I think that downsampling algorithms in post will provide even better results.
The benefit of shooting in sDNG (18MP) or mDNG (36MP) modes is getting a larger buffer depth and perhaps saving memory/hard drive space but this goes against of the benefit of having a 60MP body.
Yep, those have been discussed and agreed many times even in this thread.
The key word is at “pixel level”.
You do get extra DR and You can see cleaner shadow at pixel level. Yep, down size 60M give you similar DR but for me I don’t need those extra resolution but do enjoy extra clean file it gives me. It might be the cleanest file I have ever seen during edit at 100%.
Fred Miranda wrote:
The ISO setting matters to DR but not the resolution you choose. It's just marketing because shooting at 18MP thinking you are getting higher DR is just not the case. It's the same as shooting at 60MP and downsampling the file to 18MP in post. In fact I think that downsampling algorithms in post will provide even better results.
The benefit of shooting in sDNG (18MP) or mDNG (36MP) modes is getting a larger buffer depth and perhaps saving memory/hard drive space but this goes against of the benefit of having a 60MP body.
David Farkas said in his most recent M11 video something along the lines of:
-He saw no DR or ISO improvements between 60,36 and 18 MP files with the current M11 firmware ( apparently Leica just released a new bug fix firmware the other day) He said maybe something changes in the future but for now, regardless of marketing, he saw equal DR and ISO across the "triple resolution" files.
-The M11 cover glass is the thinnest cover glass ever used on a Leica M, I guess that means even thinner than the M8? Several of his test images showed really nice sunstars that he thought might be a result of the super thin cover glass
LBJ2 wrote:
-The M11 cover glass is the thinnest cover glass ever used on a Leica M, I guess that means even thinner than the M8? Several of his test images showed really nice sunstars that he thought might be a result of the super thin cover glass
In this case, does the M11 work unmodified with infrared image captures? In the past a thinner sensor stack allowed to take nice IR images with for example R72 filter on the lens.
retrofocus wrote:
In this case, does the M11 work unmodified with infrared image captures? In the past a thinner sensor stack allowed to take nice IR images with for example R72 filter on the lens.
Similar to the M10-R the M11 is yet another newly developed UV/IR cut filter. Still IR cut, but not sure if that answers your question or not. I do wonder if the thinner filter is possible due to the deeper wells ( if I understand correctly) /more light gathering capability of the BSI sensor. David also said that he notices less vignetting on the M11 compared to the M10-R which I think could be translated to "even better"
retrofocus wrote:
In this case, does the M11 work unmodified with infrared image captures? In the past a thinner sensor stack allowed to take nice IR images with for example R72 filter on the lens.
It is unlikely. Although I only have Leica Monochrom's I have seen from the M9M, M246 to the M10M that the sensitivity to IR on each successive model decreased. IMO as Leica continues to improve their sensors and sensor filters I believe they are making changes to eliminate more IR bleed than previous M models. I am sure IR does get through but I think that it would require longer exposures and higher ISO settings.
I've tried this electronic shutter sensor readout speed test with a computer monitor on two different cameras and three different computer monitors, even my big screen OLED TV. No matter the camera settings I've tried to include multiple shutter speeds from very fast to very slow, I can't induce these visible scan bands/lines as seen in this test.
LBJ2 wrote:
I've tried this electronic shutter sensor readout speed test with a computer monitor on two different cameras and three different computer monitors, even my big screen OLED TV. No matter the camera settings I've tried to include multiple shutter speeds from very fast to very slow, I can't induce these visible scan bands/lines as seen in this test.
I tried the same with all the LED lights in my house too. What shutter speed did you use to see the scan lines? I'm thinking shutter speed should probably be lower than the LED light frequency?
David Farkas said in his most recent M11 video something along the lines of:
-He saw no DR or ISO improvements between 60,36 and 18 MP files with the current M11 firmware ( apparently Leica just released a new bug fix firmware the other day) He said maybe something changes in the future but for now, regardless of marketing, he saw equal DR and ISO across the "triple resolution" files.
-The M11 cover glass is the thinnest cover glass ever used on a Leica M, I guess that means even thinner than the M8? Several of his test images showed really nice sunstars that he thought might be a result of the super thin cover glass
Jesko Von Oeyenhausen said in this presentation that going to a lower resolution means less noise in the shadows (better DR), but that the same effect can be achieved with 60MP if you reduce the resolution in post.
SrMi wrote:
Jesko Von Oeyenhausen said in this presentation that going to a lower resolution means less noise in the shadows (better DR), but that the same effect can be achieved with 60MP if you reduce the resolution in post.
Yes, I saw both videos. Maybe in a controlled lab environment? If I understood correctly, David was just not able to confirm real-world.
David Farkas said in his most recent M11 video something along the lines of:
-He saw no DR or ISO improvements between 60,36 and 18 MP files with the current M11 firmware ( apparently Leica just released a new bug fix firmware the other day) He said maybe something changes in the future but for now, regardless of marketing, he saw equal DR and ISO across the "triple resolution" files.
-The M11 cover glass is the thinnest cover glass ever used on a Leica M, I guess that means even thinner than the M8? Several of his test images showed really nice sunstars that he thought might be a result of the super thin cover glass...Show more →
Someone asked why there is "more" vignetting with the 35/1.4 FLE on the M11 compared to the M10-R. They replied it's not possible and according to Leica and their own experience we should get "less" vignetting because of the thinner stack and BSI. Hopefully they will test this in the future but the equipment was right there and it would be an easy and quick test.
Did anyone with a M10-R and M11 actually tested this?
I packed M10p to be sold I do notice vignette is not better than M10p if not worse. ( my feel is worse) However, right now Lightroom has issue load M11 lens profile. Enable it or not will not change anything. I think I will give adobe and Leica more time before do apple to apple comparison. That is also the problem with Miami store video, they can’t give a straight answer about EVF shooting banding for two hour presentation and QA. I only jump to that point of video and decide use my time wisely for something else.
M11 has lots of bugs that I have seen a few within just a few day use it. FN button problem I mentioned early in this thread is indeed software addressable. The new firmware update solved it.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Someone asked why there is "more" vignetting with the 35/1.4 FLE on the M11 compared to the M10-R. They replied it's not possible and according to Leica and their own experience we should get "less" vignetting because of the thinner stack and BSI. Hopefully they will test this in the future but the equipment was right there and it would be an easy and quick test.
Did anyone with a M10-R and M11 actually tested this?
zhangyue wrote:
I packed M10p to be sold I do notice vignette is not better than M10p if not worse. ( my feel is worse) However, right now Lightroom has issue load M11 lens profile. Enable it or not will not change anything. I think I will give adobe and Leica more time before do apple to apple comparison. That is also the problem with Miami store video, they can’t give a straight answer about EVF shooting banding for two hour presentation and QA. I only jump to that point of video and decide use my time wisely for something else.
M11 has lots of bugs that I have seen a few within just a few day use it. FN button problem I mentioned early in this thread is indeed software addressable. The new firmware update solved it.
It would be an easy test for those with both cameras. Hopefully someone here at FM can post a vignetting test so we can put this to rest.
When I load M11 DNG files in Lightroom, I see the "Leica M11" profile. But according to the Miami store video above, that's not an official profile from Adobe. (just the embedded jpg profile). Not sure if that's true or not but I was able to copy the data from that profile and make it work on A7R4 raw files. The result is a stronger red and more saturated colors compared to the official A7R IV profile.
Fred Miranda wrote:
It would be an easy test for those with both cameras. Hopefully someone here at FM can post a vignetting test so we can put this to rest.
When I load M11 DNG files in Lightroom, I see the "Leica M11" profile. But according to the Miami store video above, that's not an official profile from Adobe. (just the embedded jpg profile). Not sure if that's true or not but I was able to copy the data from that profile and make it work on A7R4 raw files. The result is a stronger red and more saturated colors compared to the official A7R IV profile....Show more →
Sorry, I was not clear. I am not sure about camera profile but lens profile was not correct with m11 in lightroom right now that enable it or not will not make any difference. Having said that, I just take a look of M10P file from Lib, with Lens profile (28cron II) selected or not in LR, I only notice distortion correction but no much difference on vignette. Is that means Leica doesnt correct vignette or those are cooked in RAW level can't be disabled?
I can do a test if I take M10P out of box from storage but I doubt it is really helpful if: Leica cook those DNG, or cook those DNG differently for M10/M11or M11 having problem with Lens profiles or Lightroom M11 profile loading issue etc.. Just too much variables to make it meaningful unless we are knowing what Leica did on DNG file for lens correction. If someone has subscription from Sean Reid can share some info on this?
zhangyue wrote:
Sorry, I was not clear. I am not sure about camera profile but lens profile was not correct with m11 in lightroom right now that enable it or not will not make any difference. Having said that, I just take a look of M10P file from Lib, with Lens profile (28cron II) selected or not in LR, I only notice distortion correction but no much difference on vignette. Is that means Leica doesnt correct vignette or those are cooked in RAW level can't be disabled?
I can do a test if I take M10P out of box from storage but I doubt it is really helpful if: Leica cook those DNG, or cook those DNG differently for M10/M11or M11 having problem with Lens profiles or Lightroom M11 profile loading issue etc.. Just too much variables to make it meaningful unless we are knowing what Leica did on DNG file for lens correction. If someone has subscription from Sean Reid can share some info on this? ...Show more →
If you give me the files I can test them side by side after running them through the app. DXO Pure RAW also cleans DNG files from any in-camera correction.
At one hand, you usually shooting high contrast BW under high DR harsh light. This is the case really challenge sensor DR. However, you seems prefer high contrast look without worry too much about black losing detail. Your style is similar to Daidō Moriyama. I think the least worry about his image is DR