hmzimelka wrote:
It feels like a curse that I've dealt with pretty much since the beginning of my photography days. However, since moving over to Leica, it's become much much worse. My luck with new Leica glass is even worse than what I'm experiencing with Voigtlander.
I'm close to just throwing in the towel. At this point I've wasted enough money with these three lenses that I could have just booked a flight to Germany, cherry picked a lens and flown back for about the same money.
For me to sell any Leica equipment, I would have to try South Africa, and even then, there is virtually no demand.
I've done some more testing between the two copies of the APO 50/3.5 lenses, and they aren't the same. Quite some variation. Non are perfect....Show more →
Do your shipments of lenses come via air or boat? If long flights are involved, the packages might receive some pretty intense and sustained high frequency vibrations.
Given your situation and the current state of quality control from almost every lens maker, I would travel to hand pick my lenses once a year if it were possible. And as boring as it sounds, I would get a set of lenses and stick with them. I would literally lose my mind in your shoes.
Your idea to switch to another brand isn’t a bad idea, though. I recommend Nikon then buy all the Voigtlander Z lenses and perhaps their F lenses as well. I’ve owned their Z 50/1, 40/1.2, and 50 APO and all three (purchased at different times) were flawless.
hmzimelka wrote:
Unfortunately our customs and excise rules here are strangely complicated, enforced by officials who have no idea how things work. With the Skopar lens, I enquired with UPS how much it would cost to return the lens, since it arrived from Robert White via UPS. It cost around £47 to ship from the UK to me, however, the return would cost around £201! On top of that, I will have no way of claiming back the import duties I paid, which work out to around 16.5% of the invoice amount.
Robert White has offered to enquire about return shipping of all three lenses, but I have no hopes that it will be economically feasible. Since the Skopar will be returned to Cosina Japan, and likely be looked at and deemed " in spec". I'm just very pessimistic about the problem.
Regarding the lint, I don't think that would be a difficult fix. But that is the least of my concern. The front focus issue make the lenses practically useless on the M11. Removing a shim won't fix the issue since that influences the focus issue equally over the entire range, and therefor will create a back focus problem when it comes to infinity subjects.
The non linear behaviour could be a camera issue, but seeing that none of my other lenses, of which I have several, show this type of behaviour. I can quite confidently rule out a camera issue. Besides, I have no issue with the Nokton 75mm f/1.5 with which I can consistently achieve focus at wide open aperture. The M11 rangefinder is fantastic with accuracy, and my eyes are up to the task.
At this point, if I were an impulsive person, I would have considered selling everything and moving back to Nikon. The stress or anxiety involved with getting stuff shipped to an African country, and then testing for a string of issues to determine if its a good lens copy, is just sucking the joy out photography for me. It's just not worth it. I would gladly pay double for Voigtlander if they can guarantee their quality.
In this case I bought two APO 50/3.5 lenses and both are not good. Its absurd. ...Show more →
Do ask Robert White to try to arrange return shipping. I say that because a while back, I went thought the rather frustrating task of trying to find good copies of several different Zeiss C/Y lenses. They are notorious for haze and other issues, so many required returning them from the US to Japan or China. A few of the returns, I had to ship back to them myself, which cost on average around $95 each. However, when vendors would provide me with a return label and customs instructions, the cost was zero dollars to me. One could make the argument that if your vendor is willing to sell Voigtlander lenses to you in Africa, they should stand behind their sales and arrange return shipping at their cost.
The Otus 85mm was released in 2014 and the Otus 100mm was released in 2019. Carl Zeiss (and Leica) had the longstanding tradition of engineering portrait focal length lenses to lower performance levels on axis at close distances - to present people more aesthetically. The viewer sees a softer, more dreamy rendering. Designers use the natural tendency of performance to decrease at close distances to their advantage.
Then times changed, glass formulations developed and design complexity grew, and tastes changed. What you see below is paralleled in Leica's 90/2 M APO and the SL 90/2 APO lenses. The Otus 85mm is what we can call a 60-80-90 lens - for its on axis lens contrast profile (left graph axis). We know this is a design intention because the very high performance Milvus 85mm has a profile of 50-70-90 wide open but then rises dramatically at f4. These below graphs are close focus for the Otus 85mm and for the last and greatest Otus (and Zeiss) lens, the mighty Otus 100mm. 1:20 is (I am guessing) around 2.5m, others will know.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Noticing front-focus in an f/3.5 lens indicates it is severely misaligned. If your lens is indeed front-focusing, removing a mount shim, or in other words, decreasing the distance between the lens and the sensor, will correct the issue. However, as you mentioned, this adjustment could alter the lens alignment at long distances. In some cases, this can be the right fix if Cosina didn't use the correct size shims, and tweaking it resolves everything from close focus to infinity.
Most recent Cosina lenses don't include shims in the mount. Instead, they usually have "rangefinder adjustment" shims, which are smaller and require more disassembly but are often accessible. For example, the Voigtlander 28mm f/1.5 Nokton has such shims that can be accessed without even removing the lens mount.
The Type II looks very easy to get into. I'll do that if Robert White can't find a solution for me.
I'm not sure how to manage my expectations anymore with Voigtlander, but yet again it showed me just how good my Summicron-M 50mm V is.
Here is a LINK to some DNG files shot at f/4 under near mid day sun.
I'm not seeing how this APO is any better for landscapes or anything else for that matter than my Summicron 50mm, with exception for a little less CA and no focus shift at equivalent apertures.
The Apo-Lanthar 50mm f/3.5 has an interesting colour and contrast in the greater central area. Very clean and bright. But other than that it's not some magic bullet that would stop me from taking my Summicron instead.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Do ask Robert White to try to arrange return shipping. I say that because a while back, I went thought the rather frustrating task of trying to find good copies of several different Zeiss C/Y lenses. They are notorious for haze and other issues, so many required returning them from the US to Japan or China. A few of the returns, I had to ship back to them myself, which cost on average around $95 each. However, when vendors would provide me with a return label and customs instructions, the cost was zero dollars to me. One could make the argument that if your vendor is willing to sell Voigtlander lenses to you in Africa, they should stand behind their sales and arrange return shipping at their cost. ...Show more →
Indeed, it would be nice to hear what Robert White can do and is willing to help with. However, anything other than an outright replacement is probably not worth the effort for me.
Our customs is very convoluted with rules. A lens leaving for "repair" has to come back with the same serial number. If it goes out under repair, but the supplier were to later decide to replace it, customs will not clear the parcel without a new commercial invoice and one would forfeit any claim for a refund of the original duties paid. I've not known anyone that has successfully managed to send in a claim and get their money back, so the above point is moot. So it's a guaranteed loss of my original 16.5% I paid, plus another payment of the 16.5% for re-importing.
I'm still waiting for the duties refund for my M10M camera that I had to return to Leica almost 3 years ago. Those USD 1700+ are gone for all intents and purposes.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Do your shipments of lenses come via air or boat? If long flights are involved, the packages might receive some pretty intense and sustained high frequency vibrations.
Given your situation and the current state of quality control from almost every lens maker, I would travel to hand pick my lenses once a year if it were possible. And as boring as it sounds, I would get a set of lenses and stick with them. I would literally lose my mind in your shoes.
Your idea to switch to another brand isn’t a bad idea, though. I recommend Nikon then buy all the Voigtlander Z lenses and perhaps their F lenses as well. I’ve owned their Z 50/1, 40/1.2, and 50 APO and all three (purchased at different times) were flawless. ...Show more →
I'm about to loose my mind
Yes, air freight directly from the UK. Shipping would take months and South Africa's ports are months behind with clearing, so something that would usually take a month to ship effectively ends up taking 2-3 months to pass customs in South Africa, after which it still needs to come to Namibia via truck. I'm not sure how South Africa's Leica distributor imports their lenses, but it's likely by ship, and even there my luck was about ZERO.
I can't say that airline freight is that hard on lenses over and above other modes of transport. I understand your argument for those vibrations, but I've traveled by air numerous times with my lenses in what is effectively a less padded environment than the boxes the lenses arrive in. Also the gravel roads here in Namibia are rough with corrugation in many areas, so much so that I've lost underbody bolts on my cars from those vibrations. At no point has any lens I owned changed its performance as a result. I just think today's high res cameras do make it tough for lens manufactures.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Most recent Cosina lenses don't include shims in the mount. Instead, they usually have "rangefinder adjustment" shims, which are smaller and require more disassembly but are often accessible. For example, the Voigtlander 28mm f/1.5 Nokton has such shims that can be accessed without even removing the lens mount.
I've not encountered any mount shims in any of my Voigtlander lenses...perhaps they did this in older lenses than the ones I own. There are almost always shims in place between the optical assembly and the focusing assembly, which are effectively almost the same thing as mount based shims, except the latter would affect both optical and rangefinder calibration together. While the optical block shim would offset the lens focus point while maintaining the rangefinder coupling ring position. Some but not all lenses have the rangefinder coupling ring that can be unscrewed with shims underneath, and here one can adjust rangefinder calibration independent of the optical block position.
The Type II has both shim locations. The front name-plate can be unscrewed, after which one can remove three screws holding the optical block to the focusing housing. Very much like the Ultron 28mm f/2 ASPH.
The Type II Apo Lanther has a rear coupling ring that can be unthreaded to adjust the rangefinder shim stack.
I'll only delve into this DIY repair once I hear back from Robert White.
hmzimelka wrote:
I've not encountered any mount shims in any of my Voigtlander lenses...perhaps they did this in older lenses than the ones I own. There are almost always shims in place between the optical assembly and the focusing assembly, which are effectively almost the same thing as mount based shims, except the latter would affect both optical and rangefinder calibration together. While the optical block shim would offset the lens focus point while maintaining the rangefinder coupling ring position. Some but not all lenses have the rangefinder coupling ring that can be unscrewed with shims underneath, and here one can adjust rangefinder calibration independent of the optical block position. ...Show more →
Absolutely correct! I hope Robert White accommodates a lens replacement for you.
The Type II looks very easy to get into. I'll do that if Robert White can't find a solution for me.
I'm not sure how to manage my expectations anymore with Voigtlander, but yet again it showed me just how good my Summicron-M 50mm V is.
Here is a LINK to some DNG files shot at f/4 under near mid day sun.
I'm not seeing how this APO is any better for landscapes or anything else for that matter than my Summicron 50mm, with exception for a little less CA and no focus shift at equivalent apertures.
The Apo-Lanthar 50mm f/3.5 has an interesting colour and contrast in the greater central area. Very clean and bright. But other than that it's not some magic bullet that would stop me from taking my Summicron instead.
I'll be posting some more M11 DNG files from today's walk on Mars. I'm heading out of town tomorrow for a couple days so I'll hopefully squeeze that in before.
highdesertmesa wrote:
Strange to say, but the Voigtlander images look more vintage and the Cron images look more modern
Well, the Cron does impress. I was very impressed with it when I compared it to the Leica APO Summicron 50mm ASPH I bought and returned, which was only about a stop better than the oldie version 5.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I initially got the A7CR just for a quick test, but I ended up deciding to keep it. I’m likely going to send it to Kolari for a UT conversion.
Sorry for an off topic reply, but what are your thoughts on the A7CR? I've been highly considering it because I prefer the viewfinder in the corner, but the reports/reviews on the EVF seem really off-putting. I'd love to pair it with some small lenses as an everyday carry, and throw it on a tripod for more "serious" work.
whiteonline wrote:
Sorry for an off topic reply, but what are your thoughts on the A7CR? I've been highly considering it because I prefer the viewfinder in the corner, but the reports/reviews on the EVF seem really off-putting. I'd love to pair it with some small lenses as an everyday carry, and throw it on a tripod for more "serious" work.
whiteonline wrote:
Sorry for an off topic reply, but what are your thoughts on the A7CR? I've been highly considering it because I prefer the viewfinder in the corner, but the reports/reviews on the EVF seem really off-putting. I'd love to pair it with some small lenses as an everyday carry, and throw it on a tripod for more "serious" work.
hmzimelka wrote:
Here is a LINK to some DNG files shot at f/4 under near mid day sun.
I'm not seeing how this APO is any better for landscapes or anything else for that matter than my Summicron 50mm, with exception for a little less CA and no focus shift at equivalent apertures.
The Apo-Lanthar 50mm f/3.5 has an interesting colour and contrast in the greater central area. Very clean and bright. But other than that it's not some magic bullet that would stop me from taking my Summicron instead.
Thanks for the link to the full-res examples. What I'm seeing is that the Voigtlander has slightly higher fine detail definition/contrast in the central image area while the Cron has way more pleasing (IMO) rendering outside the plane of focus in the image periphery. The out of focus grass in the Voigtlander's garden image is so busy, I don't think I can un-see it.
That's called content, Ron. It's unlikely that Cosina had in mind to produce a garden lens or material with monotone shades. I saw something similar with Jimmy Cheng the other day, the 'can't get the hood off' guy. He used his courtyard on which to base his pronouncements. I meant to post that one, here it is as an example of this behavior:
YT title:
'Voigtlander 50mm F2.2 Color-Skopar Review | Comparison With Leica Summicron and Summarit'
Many Leica reviewers and enthusiasts are prone to better/best assessments based on very little diversity of subject matter. And understandably people get used to a certain style of representing the content they favor.
I think there are many great 50mm lenses out there, and I agree that the Leica 50mm f/2 Summicron is one of the best. However, there are several situations where the Voigtlander 50mm f/3.5 APO-Lanthar performs better, which might not be covered in your tests but are significant differences between these lenses.
The Voigtlander lens can focus closer (LV), offering 0.45m or 0.35m depending on the version, compared to the 0.7m of the Leica. The Voigtlander handles flare better, which will be noticeable in backlit shots. For resolution and contrast, while the Leica is very good, the Voigtlander 50/3.5 APO-Lanthar is even better, especially in areas away from the center, though this might not show in your current comparison samples.
The Voigtlander lens does not cause frameline blockage, just like the Summicron. The APO design of the Voigtlander ensures no color errors. The Voigtlander also produces a flat field curvature, while the Summicron shows slight outward curvature. The Voigtlander produces defined sunstars starting at f/4, which you may prefer.
These differences might not matter for your photography style, and in that case, the 50mm f/2 Summicron could indeed be a better fit for you.
philip_pj wrote:
That's called content, Ron. It's unlikely that Cosina had in mind to produce a garden lens or material with monotone shades. I saw something similar with Jimmy Cheng the other day, the 'can't get the hood off' guy. He used his courtyard on which to base his pronouncements. I meant to post that one, here it is as an example of this behavior:
YT title:
'Voigtlander 50mm F2.2 Color-Skopar Review | Comparison With Leica Summicron and Summarit'
Many Leica reviewers and enthusiasts are prone to better/best assessments based on very little diversity of subject matter. And understandably people get used to a certain style of representing the content they favor. ...Show more →
Call it whatever you want; you're entitled to your opinion. I find it extremely jarring the 'quality' of the focus transition in the outer zone of the 50/3.5 APO Lanthar compared to the Cron. I also saw the effect in some of Juha's images and the latest download link from @hmzimelka. I simply don't like the harshness of its outer zone OOF background character; the double-line effect. On-axis OOF background looks reasonable in comparison.
The APO Lanthar looks amazing in the plane of focus and not all images would suffer from harsh transition effects. The size/weight of the 50/3.5 APO is appealing but based on Fred's comparisons, I feel I would strongly prefer the additional versatility of the 50/2 APO Lanthar's speed and better outer zone smoothness. Less than 70cm MFD is low priority for me.
