fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              5              7              19       20       end
  

Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review

  
 
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #1 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Jonas B wrote:
Thank you Fred! I know from my own efforts how much work it is to present findings when checking a new lens.

And, a) will you check how the lens performs on a Sony? b) Do we know anything about the price?
Personal taste is what it is... so fwiw I have to say I agree with Steve.


Hi Jonas,
Thank you!
In my opinion, there is no need to test this telephoto lens on a Sony or other mirrorless cameras. I’m confident it will perform just as well as it does on a Leica. Simply add an adapter and enjoy the lens at its full potential. This is due to its focal length and optical design. The thicker sensor stack on Sony cameras should not be a concern, as the angle of incidence for this lens is very shallow, with light rays being nearly perpendicular.

I don't have any pricing information, as the lens hasn't been officially announced in the US yet.



Jan 15, 2025 at 12:05 PM
OscarF
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #2 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


I’m no optical expert but given the small size of the two rear elements (looking at the lens diagram and your photo of the rear of the 2 90’s) - aren’t the light rays passing through edges of the Voigtlander lens going to hit the sensor at a steeper angle than they do on the Leica? Won’t the thick Sony sensor glass cause some light ray spreading at larger apertures?


Jan 15, 2025 at 12:40 PM
Jonas B
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #3 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


I hope you are right Fred, but:
Checking the images comparing the rear lens elements (page 1 post 18)it seems to me as perpendicular rays are impossible.



Jan 15, 2025 at 12:47 PM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #4 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


OscarF wrote:
I’m no optical expert but given the small size of the two rear elements (looking at the lens diagram and your photo of the rear of the 2 90’s) - aren’t the light rays passing through edges of the Voigtlander lens going to hit the sensor at a steeper angle than they do on the Leica? Won’t the thick Sony sensor glass cause some light ray spreading at larger apertures?


Jonas B wrote:
I hope you are right Fred, but:
Checking the images comparing the rear lens elements (page 1 post 18)it seems to me as perpendicular rays are impossible.



That's a great point, I hadn't thought about that. A smaller exit pupil diameter could definitely affect how a lens performs on a camera with a thicker sensor stack like Sony’s. That said, the impact is usually less obvious or minimal with telephoto lenses than with wide-angles, since the light rays from telephotos are generally more straight-on to the sensor. Still, if the exit pupil is small enough, it could still have some effect. Not sure now.



Jan 15, 2025 at 01:08 PM
oscartb
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #5 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


I'd be interested in a comparison, or even just thoughts/inferences, of the Apo Ultron vs the Apo Skopar. Curious whether the tradeoffs in size/weight do give superior resolution/contrast/correction/etc or whether it's mostly just the extra stop of light.

I have a Leica 90 f/2.5 that I'm getting tired of. The hood isn't reversible and is external threaded on so it takes up more space that necessary and is a pain with filters taking it on and off, plus it's very not-apo corrected and fringes more than I'd like.



Jan 15, 2025 at 01:58 PM
zugzwang2
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #6 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Fred Miranda wrote:
A smaller exit pupil diameter could definitely affect how a lens performs on a camera with a thicker sensor stack like Sony’s. . . . Not sure now.


Comparing the Voigtlander's performance on a Sony body with that on the Leica would be interesting--at least to me.




Jan 15, 2025 at 04:09 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #7 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Fred Miranda wrote:
That's a great point, I hadn't thought about that. A smaller exit pupil diameter could definitely affect how a lens performs on a camera with a thicker sensor stack like Sony’s. That said, the impact is usually less obvious or minimal with telephoto lenses than with wide-angles, since the light rays from telephotos are generally more straight-on to the sensor. Still, if the exit pupil is small enough, it could still have some effect. Not sure now.


I think all else being equal a small diameter exit pupil will reduce problems on a thicker sensor stack not exacerbate them, but all else is not necessarily equal. I think the exit pupil may appear smaller because it is closer to the sensor and a shorter exit pupil is one factor that can lead to worse performance on a camera with thicker sensor glass. That said, my prediction with a 90mm f/2 lens is that the exit pupil will not be short enough to cause problems, but it would be good to test that out to verify it.



Jan 15, 2025 at 04:15 PM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #8 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
Thanks for these samples Fred. Although there is an obvious similarity in the optical performance between the Leica M 90 cron AA and this Voigtlander lens, it is becoming clear that there are some important differences. In the Voigtlander's favor, it has even more contrast and especially microcontrast, even better correction for axial CA, and less susceptibility to flare than the Leica 90 cron AA, which is high praise. In the Leica's favor it has less vignetting which shows up with rounder bokeh balls for more of the frame and a bit more blur at the edges and corners
...Show more

Steve, I generally agree. The VM is clearly technically superior in many aspects but there's something about the 90AA's look/character that I slightly prefer for the same reasons you pointed out. Whether that's enough of a difference were I starting over.... probably not because I can't ignore the price/performance difference (though used 90AAs can be found reasonably priced, as I did some time ago, but still nowhere close to the VM new).

I have that Leica trio and agree that the size/weight adds up (especially because my 50 Lux is the silver/brass version). My compromise, for daytime walk around, is the 90/4 Macro in place of the AA most of the time. Size and weight of the 28 and 50 Luxes don't bother me as much and they're pretty much the two core lenses in my M kit, which I supplement with slower options at the wider and longer ends most of the time to balance overall size and weight of the system. The 90AA mostly sees use when I want the look of f/2, or TBH, if adapted to mirrorless where I can leverage IBIS and it's a relatively small lens in comparison to similar mirrorless AF options. For me at least, 90/2 on M does not feel quite "M" if you know what I mean. Somewhat big and somewhat difficult to consistently focus wide open. And I need relatively high shutter speeds to offset camera shake (above 1/250). For low light work I reach for the 50 much more often. The VM makes a lot of sense for how I currently use the 90AA as a supplementary lens, but it did't exist ~10 years ago and I'm not really compelled to swap because the main appeal of the 90AA is its wide open look (despite potential for onion rings in out of focus specular highlights).



Jan 15, 2025 at 04:56 PM
rscheffler
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #9 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


OscarF wrote:
I’m no optical expert but given the small size of the two rear elements (looking at the lens diagram and your photo of the rear of the 2 90’s) - aren’t the light rays passing through edges of the Voigtlander lens going to hit the sensor at a steeper angle than they do on the Leica? Won’t the thick Sony sensor glass cause some light ray spreading at larger apertures?

Jonas B wrote:
I hope you are right Fred, but:
Checking the images comparing the rear lens elements (page 1 post 18)it seems to me as perpendicular rays are impossible.

Fred Miranda wrote:
That's a great point, I hadn't thought about that. A smaller exit pupil diameter could definitely affect how a lens performs on a camera with a thicker sensor stack like Sony’s. That said, the impact is usually less obvious or minimal with telephoto lenses than with wide-angles, since the light rays from telephotos are generally more straight-on to the sensor. Still, if the exit pupil is small enough, it could still have some effect. Not sure now.


I believe exit pupil distance is also a significant factor in respect to edge performance with non-native sensor stacks. The general rule seems to be the closer and smaller it is, the worse the edge performance. How one measures exit pupil distance, I'm not sure...



Jan 15, 2025 at 05:01 PM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #10 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


rscheffler wrote:
I believe exit pupil distance is also a significant factor in respect to edge performance with non-native sensor stacks. The general rule seems to be the closer and smaller it is, the worse the edge performance. How one measures exit pupil distance, I'm not sure...


Yes, the sensor distance and diameter are factors. I might need to test it on a Sony stock to confirm.



Jan 15, 2025 at 05:31 PM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #11 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


rscheffler wrote:
I believe exit pupil distance is also a significant factor in respect to edge performance with non-native sensor stacks. The general rule seems to be the closer and smaller it is, the worse the edge performance. How one measures exit pupil distance, I'm not sure...


I actually think it is the closer the exit pupil and the larger it is (i.e., the larger the aperture of the lens) the worse the edge performance.



Jan 15, 2025 at 08:09 PM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #12 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
I actually think it is the closer the exit pupil and the larger it is (i.e., the larger the aperture of the lens) the worse the edge performance.


Steve, your comment really made me rethink how this works.

If the lens's exit pupil (the visible opening at the back) is larger in diameter, it allows light rays to enter the sensor at wider angles, particularly at the edges of the frame. On the Sony’s thicker sensor stack, these wider angles can cause issues like smearing or affect the field curvature, as the stack struggles to handle light coming in at those angles. Stopping down the lens (smaller aperture size) reduces the exit pupil size, narrowing the range of angles and improving edge performance.

So, in this context, the Leica APO-Summicron 90mm f/2, with its larger exit pupil diameter, could actually cause more issues than the Voigtländer on a thicker sensor stack when used wide open, since its larger exit pupil allows for steeper light rays.

By this logic, a lens with higher optical vignetting, like the Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron, restricts or blocks light rays from the edges of the frame. This can actually help reduce issues like smearing in the corners, as the lens prevents those steeply angled light rays from reaching the sensor at the edges. So, if the Leica APO-Summicron 90mm f/2 ASPH. performs great on the Sony (which it does), the Voigtlander should perform the same or better, not worse.

Having said all that, the actual performance also depends heavily on the overall lens design (which we are not experts). The arrangement of the internal lens elements plays a crucial role in how the lens handles off-axis light. So, this isn't solely determined by the exit pupil size and position. I guess testing it is the best way to really find out.




Jan 15, 2025 at 11:18 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #13 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Fred Miranda wrote:
Steve, your comment really made me rethink how this works.

If the lens's exit pupil (the visible opening at the back) is larger in diameter, it allows light rays to enter the sensor at wider angles, particularly at the edges of the frame. On the Sony’s thicker sensor stack, these wider angles can cause issues like smearing or affect the field curvature, as the stack struggles to handle light coming in at those angles. Stopping down the lens (smaller aperture size) reduces the exit pupil size, narrowing the range of angles and improving edge performance.

So, in this context, the Leica
...Show more

Yes, this way of thinking makes lots of sense and exit pupil distance (i.e., length) I believe works the same way. You can think of a lens as a tube. A bigger diameter tube will allow more light rays from the edges of the frame, but so will a shorter tube. A longer and narrower tube will block light rays from the edges of the frame.

The Voigtlander 90 f/2 APO clearly has a narrower exit pupil, but it might have a shorter exit pupil distance (like Ron I don't know how you measure that or even try to see it), and as you say the lens design also matters. So the Voigtlander 90 f/2 APO might be better than the Leica 90 cron AA or it might be worse, but I will be surprised as a 90mm f/2 lens if there are any significant problems but it would still be good to test it. I hope you have the opportunity to do so, Fred.



Jan 16, 2025 at 07:11 AM
NodNova
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #14 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


I have an Elmarit-M 90/2.8 (the latest version) and it performs significantly worse corner-wise on an unmodified Sony body than on a film/digital Leica M body. On Sony, its corners are never sharp even at F11, while the corners sharpen up nicely from F4 on a Leica body.
And the Elmarit 90/2.8 is in fact a SLR design, which it shares with the last version of Elmarit-R 90/2.8. So the stackglass thickness does have an impact even for a tele lens.



Jan 16, 2025 at 07:40 AM
Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #15 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


NodNova wrote:
I have an Elmarit-M 90/2.8 (the latest version) and it performs significantly worse corner-wise on an unmodified Sony body than on a film/digital Leica M body. On Sony, its corners are never sharp even at F11, while the corners sharpen up nicely from F4 on a Leica body.
And the Elmarit 90/2.8 is in fact a SLR design, which it shares with the last version of Elmarit-R 90/2.8. So the stackglass thickness does have an impact even for a tele lens.


Interesting. This case seems to one where it is likely lens design that is the problem and not exit pupil diameter or exit pupil distance. Stopped down to f/11 the exit pupil is very small and few Leica M lenses have problems on Sony cameras stopped down that far.



Jan 16, 2025 at 07:48 AM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #16 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, this way of thinking makes lots of sense and exit pupil distance (i.e., length) I believe works the same way. You can think of a lens as a tube. A bigger diameter tube will allow more light rays from the edges of the frame, but so will a shorter tube. A longer and narrower tube will block light rays from the edges of the frame.

The Voigtlander 90 f/2 APO clearly has a narrower exit pupil, but it might have a shorter exit pupil distance (like Ron I don't know how you measure that or even try to
...Show more

Thank you for your initial comment...it really helped me understand this more clearly. An easy way to visualize this concept is by considering how M-mount lenses perform on a Sony sensor. Often, particularly with wide-angle and 'normal' lenses, the corners show noticeable deterioration (smearing, astigmatism, etc.) when the lens is used wide open (with the largest possible exit pupil). However, as the lens is stopped down to smaller apertures, like f/8, these issues usually disappear. This happens because the smaller aperture is in fact, reducing the exit pupil size, limiting the steep angles of light rays that cause the corner degradation.

I'll likely test the Voigtlander 90mm f/2.8 APO-Ultron on a Sony sensor, but I’m more confident now that it will perform similarly to how it does on the Leica sensor. Its noticeably smaller exit pupil when wide open, compared to the Leica, suggests it might handle the Sony sensor well, especially since the Leica already performs great on it.



Jan 16, 2025 at 02:42 PM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #17 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Since my Sony A7RC is converted to an "Ultra Thin" filter, I just picked up a used Sony A7R II (42MP) to test this lens on a standard Sony sensor. I should get it next week.


Jan 17, 2025 at 08:48 PM
Juha Kannisto
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #18 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Map Camera published a new video with samples taken with 90/2:



Looking forward to Fred's findings on a standard Sony sensor as I'm planning to get this lens in a couple of weeks for my A7CII but could always change the plans if it turns out to perform below expectations on Sony.

In the meanwhile my 28/1.5 E-mount version has been shipped today and is on the way, should arrive tomorrow morning.



Jan 22, 2025 at 04:36 AM
LarsHP
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.6 #19 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Juha Kannisto wrote:
Map Camera published a new video with samples taken with 90/2:



...


Thanks for sharing.

The image with the old lenses on a table shows a little bit of bokeh fringing, so not fully color corrected there. It's probably better than the Apo-Summicron-M, though, but Fred's tests will make that clear, I'm sure.



Jan 22, 2025 at 05:57 AM
Fred Miranda
Offline
Admin
Upload & Sell: On
p.6 #20 · Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron Review


Juha Kannisto wrote:
Map Camera published a new video with samples taken with 90/2:



Looking forward to Fred's findings on a standard Sony sensor as I'm planning to get this lens in a couple of weeks for my A7CII but could always change the plans if it turns out to perform below expectations on Sony.

In the meanwhile my 28/1.5 E-mount version has been shipped today and is on the way, should arrive tomorrow morning.


I just received the A7R II body and plan to test it alongside the M10-R with the CV 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron, as soon as the weather allows. Both cameras feature ~40MP sensors.

Received the CV 28mm f/1.5 E-mount as well and will compare to the M-verson soon.



Jan 22, 2025 at 11:48 AM
1       2       3              5              7              19       20       end






FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              5              7              19       20       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register