p.2 #1 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
burchyk wrote:
Both Ultrons Type I (28mm and 35mm) were aluminium vs brass for the Type II. Type I had the "stick", Type II had the tab.
My wish list for the "Type III":
- matte black or matte silver;
- no chrome ring;
- lightweight aluminium;
- deeper tab;
- if close focus, please leave about 90 degrees for the "normal" distances;
With the APO still fairly new (and out of stock almost everywhere), I doubt we'll see a CV 28/2 Ultron II anytime soon, but discontinuing the CV 35/2 Ultron probably left a bit of a gap. That lens had replaced the 35/1.7, and while the 35/2 APO exists, it's much larger and very different optically, so not really a true substitute.
There's definitely room in the line-up for a new, compact CV 35/2 Ultron II that includes the features you mentioned...those would be excellent improvements.
I can definitely see Cosina updating their 35mm f/2 and 50mm f/2 APO-Lanthar lenses next, following the design style of the new CV 28mm f/2 APO-Lanthar...just without that unusual hood design.
p.2 #2 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
If Cosina has already planned any replacements of these Ultron 35/2 and/or 28/2, I think they would probably pre-announce the new version(s) at CP+ at the end of February and release sometime later next year (like they did with the new versions of their 35/1.2, 40/1.2 and 50/1.2 VM lenses last time).
I agree that this time around there could be a better chance of a 35/2 replacement since that was a bit older lens (Type I with same optics introduced in 2019) and a popular category and there is some gap between 35/1.5 and 35/2 AL and 35/2.5, 35/3.5 where it could compete. There are also a lot 35/2 M-mount lenses coming to market from Chinese makers recently and it's a very popular category.
If they replace the 28/2 Ultron with a new version, I think it would happen later.
Personally I had 35/2 Type I and 28/2 Type II Black but since they both had quite noticeable sensor stack induced field curvature on Sony cameras I eventually traded them away. From current VM family at these focal lengths I now only keep the 28/2.8 Color Skopar Type II Black and I have none of the 35mm VMs. Especially for the wider end I prefer to use the native E-mount CV versions these days, but 28/2.8 VM is quite nice as a smaller option. I do still keep quite many VMs at 50mm and longer.
p.2 #3 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
Fred Miranda wrote:
I can definitely see Cosina updating their 35mm f/2 and 50mm f/2 APO-Lanthar lenses next, following the design style of the new CV 28mm f/2 APO-Lanthar...just without that unusual hood design.
Yes, I can definitely see this: APOs to replace Ultrons.
p.2 #4 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
What lenses will be discontinued next?
I'm guessing:
- 35mm f/1.4 Nokton Classic: too much competition (LLL, Artizlab, Peace, Mandler)
- 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar: superseded by the f/3.5
- 50mm f/1.5 Heliar Classic: niche, short-run item
- 75mm f/1.5 Nokton Vintage Line: to be replaced by an f/2 APO
p.2 #5 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
I guess, the Ultrons were discontinued not because they didn't sell, but because they sold too well and poached in their siblings' hunting grounds too much as the Ultrons offer most of an Apo/Skopar/Nokton's key selling point together with other advantages.
p.2 #6 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
raizans wrote:
What lenses will be discontinued next?
I'm guessing:
- 35mm f/1.4 Nokton Classic: too much competition (LLL, Artizlab, Peace, Mandler)
- 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar: superseded by the f/3.5
- 50mm f/1.5 Heliar Classic: niche, short-run item
- 75mm f/1.5 Nokton Vintage Line: to be replaced by an f/2 APO
The 35mm f1.4 is still one of - if not the - best-selling lens for them. I doubt they will discontinue it.
It’s rather the 35mm f2 that has a tricky place in the line-up because the 35mm f1.4 and 35mm f1.5 are both so tiny, that you don’t really gain much with the f2.
There’s definitely some room between the 35mm f3.5 and 35mm f1.5 though, so perhaps an f2 / f2.2 / f2.5 makes sense there.
On 75mm, they already discontinued the 75mm f1.9 a while ago so the slot for a 75mm APO is already there. Imo if they discontinue the 75mm f1.5 then probably more so to update the design of the housing.
p.2 #7 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
Steve Spencer wrote:
That doesn't seem to be what they are doing. It seems to be that the Ultrons are not quite as small as the Color Skopars, don't perform as well as the APO-Lanthars, and don't have the wide aperture of the Noktons. I would think that could leave them as balancing these concerns, but apparently Cosina doesn't think so.
At 28mm we now have these lenses in production for Leica M mount:
f/1.5 Nokton
f/2 APO Lanthar
f/2.8 Color Skopar
I think this lineup makes a lot of sense and personally I think all three are excellent lenses but very different in what they provide. I think the f/2 Ultron overlapped a lot with the Color Skopar, small and excellent especially stopped down, but it has so much vignetting that I found myself always wanting to stop down to f/2.4, so not a lot of advantage over the Color Skopar
Obviously they make more 35mm lenses, but Voigtlander has always made a lot of 35mm lenses and I don't expect that to change. The three Noktons are all pretty different, and I don't expect them to stop making any of them soon. They give shooters choice if they want to have wide aperture. The two Color-Skopars offer options for a very small lens from really small to tiny. Again shooter have choice at small size. The APO Lanthar does what it does and provides an excellently performing lens with a moderately fast aperture. I wouldn't be surprised to see a MK II before long to make it a bit smaller but it does what it does exceptionally well.
It seems to me what Cosina is doing is giving us a choice between wide aperture, super small size, or top level performance. We can get any one of those, but the Ultrons that balance those characteristics they have mostly stopped making. For Leica M at least. ...Show more →
I agree Steve. There are arguments in favor of both the current three lens selection and the inclusion of the Ultron. For me at least, I don't think the f/2 APO is a good alternative to the Ultron, at least for M use, because the APO is a lot larger. Now you have to drop to f/2.8 for a compact 28mm lens.
Without overthinking it too much, it could just be that the Ultron was the oldest of the bunch and in this respect was logically the first to be cut. And I think it's being cut for eventual replacement. It's too good a lens not to bring back.
That said, it's Cosina and we're all just guessing.
But they probably have the most v2, v3 and v4 lenses of any lens manufacturer, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a v3 eventually. I actually expect it will happen.
p.2 #8 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
raizans wrote:
What lenses will be discontinued next?
I'm guessing:
- 35mm f/1.4 Nokton Classic: too much competition (LLL, Artizlab, Peace, Mandler)
- 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar: superseded by the f/3.5
- 50mm f/1.5 Heliar Classic: niche, short-run item
- 75mm f/1.5 Nokton Vintage Line: to be replaced by an f/2 APO
The long term production keepers are often related to the sales success and product position in Japan market. 35/1.4 is one of the longest runners along with 40/1.4 and those remain quite popular in Japan market and are priced somewhat cheaper than the more recent releases. Also, 35/2.5 VM is one of their cheapest lenses now (less than 40K yen in shops like Map Camera) and 35/3.5 is more than double that price (85K+), so they are not battling for the same buyers. Cosina has tended to keep a number of those lower priced old timers in production for a very long time and I think 35/2.5 is still being kept for such reasons, as an entry model and for film users etc.
50/1.5 Heliar classic is representing their classic rendering style lenses and there are not too many of those in their active lineup. I've understood that they'd like to introduce some more of such lenses going forward (they talked about it in recent Photo Exhibition's talkshow). I think this will also not get discontinued anytime soon.
75/1.5 is a kind of portrait lens and I think a potential 75/2 APO would not be seen as a suitable replacement for portrait shooters, so I think they will also keep 75/1.5 for longer term (and it would be replaced with something new and similar rather than 75/2 APO).
p.2 #9 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
I’d rather look at a list of lenses that Voigtländer is adding to its lineup than the ones it’s discontinuing.
The Color-Skopar 35mm f/2.5 deserves a successor — it could easily be just another version of the 35mm f/3.5 Type II in a modern design, with a shorter minimum focusing distance and a more reasonable price.
p.2 #10 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
Plzenaak wrote:
I’d rather look at a list of lenses that Voigtländer is adding to its lineup than the ones it’s discontinuing.
The Color-Skopar 35mm f/2.5 deserves a successor — it could easily be just another version of the 35mm f/3.5 Type II in a modern design, with a shorter minimum focusing distance and a more reasonable price.
They've had a couple of these really old ones kept in the active lineup for a very long time, and with this announcement the 21/4 got discontinued finally.
- 40/1.4 (from 2004) with official price 50K yen (before tax), street price including tax was around 36K for a long time but it went up to around 43K a couple of years ago and has stayed there
- 35/2.5 (from 2006) with official price 45K yen (before tax), street price including tax was around 33K for a long time but it went up to around 39K a year ago and has stayed there
- 21/4 (from 2007) with official price 55K yen (before tax), street price including tax was around 39K for a long time but it went up around a year ago and has stayed at 43K recently
Especially 40/1.4 and 35/2.5 have remained among their top 5 best-selling VM lenses in Japan for a long time until now, I think it's mostly due to the low prices and popular focal lengths (+ fast aperture on 40/1.4). New releases have been pretty much always priced upwards from 60K yen (street prices).
It could certainly be an option for them to make some new ones at equally low price points to replace the old timers but they have preferred to keep some of the old ones around until now. Perhaps that has been more cost-effective.
As for entirely new VM releases coming up next year, I'm guessing that a new APO-Lanthar 75mm f2 could be in the cards at least. For FF mirrorless, I'm expecting 28/2 APO-Lanthar soon, and maybe 75/2 later, and possibly 90/2 (APO-Lanthar, a bit bigger than VM APO-Ultron). I would like to see some pancake lenses for FF mirrorless too (something like their Fujifilm X-mount pancakes but slightly bigger to provide good balance of size and performance in FF). I don't have any insider info on what's coming though.
p.2 #11 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
I use both the 35mm and 28mm Ultron, and in fact, these are my most lenses, almost always attached to my camera.
In my opinion, there's no doubt about IMO, it's excellent, and it's more than good enough for the type of subjects I want to shoot.
The key lens is compact enough to barely block the viewfinder, which is very important.
Hearing that such excellent products have been discontinued is truly a bit disappointing.
BTW, I chose the brass version II, and the focus feel is much smoother than the I type.
p.2 #12 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Especially 40/1.4 and 35/2.5 have remained among their top 5 best-selling VM lenses in Japan for a long time until now, I think it's mostly due to the low prices and popular focal lengths (+ fast aperture on 40/1.4). New releases have been pretty much always priced upwards from 60K yen (street prices).
It could certainly be an option for them to make some new ones at equally low price points to replace the old timers but they have preferred to keep some of the old ones around until now. Perhaps that has been more cost-effective.
Exactly - it is all about getting more revenue. The ones with lower price point are replaced by more expensive ones. Problem with this strategy: Chinese M lens manufacturers will see this niche and make these for a lower price point in likely similar quality. Fingers crossed that Cosina doesn't kind of copy Leica's luxury price game....
p.2 #13 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
At some point a non-updated, long selling lens sees a significant enough falloff in demand, even if it's inexpensive. Some users may want the excitement of something new, even if the end result is not significantly improved, if at all. Some of these, such as the 21/4, have actual technical shortcomings on digital that were addressed by successor lenses, such as the 21/3.5. And with the long run a lens like the 21/4 has had, or the 35/2.5, 40/1.4, etc., there is also a healthy selection available on the used market that directly competes against sales of new units. If you browse Map Camera's used Voigtlander lenses, you will often see a pretty huge selection of a given model. I guess at some point a lens crosses a certain threshold that causes Cosina to consider it for discontinuation.
For sure Cosina is experiencing pressure at the lower end of their portfolio from Chinese brands. It could make sense for them to leverage their good brand reputation and move to more premium releases. I'm actually kind of surprised Cosina hasn't put much effort in releases in the ~$2k range beyond their 50/1.0, as it's a vastly underserved area in the overall M system. Leica has pretty much ceded it after discontinuing the competent but pedestrian Summarit line and Cosina could release some very exciting, very high performing lenses in this space.
That said, I'm happy they still have lower price offerings. While I haven't recently added much in way of lenses for my M system, I did recently acquire the VM 50/2.2, which obviously is at the low end of the Voigtlander price range.
p.2 #14 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
rscheffler wrote:
At some point a non-updated, long selling lens sees a significant enough falloff in demand, even if it's inexpensive. Some users may want the excitement of something new, even if the end result is not significantly improved, if at all. Some of these, such as the 21/4, have actual technical shortcomings on digital that were addressed by successor lenses, such as the 21/3.5. And with the long run a lens like the 21/4 has had, or the 35/2.5, 40/1.4, etc., there is also a healthy selection available on the used market that directly competes against sales of new units. If you browse Map Camera's used Voigtlander lenses, you will often see a pretty huge selection of a given model. I guess at some point a lens crosses a certain threshold that causes Cosina to consider it for discontinuation.
For sure Cosina is experiencing pressure at the lower end of their portfolio from Chinese brands. It could make sense for them to leverage their good brand reputation and move to more premium releases. I'm actually kind of surprised Cosina hasn't put much effort in releases in the ~$2k range beyond their 50/1.0, as it's a vastly underserved area in the overall M system. Leica has pretty much ceded it after discontinuing the competent but pedestrian Summarit line and Cosina could release some very exciting, very high performing lenses in this space.
That said, I'm happy they still have lower price offerings. While I haven't recently added much in way of lenses for my M system, I did recently acquire the VM 50/2.2, which obviously is at the low end of the Voigtlander price range....Show more →
Actually used copies of CV 40/1.4 and 35/2.5 in fine or good condition tend to be priced very close to new ones (around 1-3K lower is typical) at Map Camera and other major 2nd hand stores and there are usually not many of them I stock. At those price gaps I think many will choose to buy them as new. Right now there are new copies of both on stock at Map but 0 used copies of either. There are some used older C version copies of 35/2.5 that are priced higher than the current version. So far these seem to remain popular in Japan market. Checking from kakaku.com lens popularity rankings today, 35/2.5 is #1 among VM lenses, 21/4 is #3, 40/1.4 (MC and SC) are at #8 and #9. Usually 40/1.4 have been higher. I think this is a Japan market specific situation though and here the Chinese lenses tend to cost more than in other markets and they are not as popular so far. In other global markets I think the situation is quite different.
p.2 #15 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
The Japanese used equipment market is somewhat odd/unique in how close to retail the price of used lenses are, at least at major shops like Map. Indeed in that case, there is strong incentive to buy new, and I certainly would if that was my only choice. But on this side of the world, that's generally not the case.
I'm actually a bit baffled that stores like Map apparently give very attractive trade-in values. You have a lot of experience with this.
p.2 #16 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
rscheffler wrote:
The Japanese used equipment market is somewhat odd/unique in how close to retail the price of used lenses are, at least at major shops like Map. Indeed in that case, there is strong incentive to buy new, and I certainly would if that was my only choice. But on this side of the world, that's generally not the case.
I'm actually a bit baffled that stores like Map apparently give very attractive trade-in values. You have a lot of experience with this.
Yeah, Map Camera give attractive trade-in values on specific items including certain CV lenses, MS-Optics lenses etc. That's especially the case when you buy something from them against the trade-in (that gives an extra 10%), and they give coupons for 3% extra trade-in value with any new purchase so I have lots of those. I've done a lot of trade-ins there when buying new stuff in the past.
Recently I noticed that Fujiya Camera have even better trade-in values on some items (esp. when trading in without buying something at the same time), and trade-in item checks there are much faster (5-10min vs. 1-2h at Map), so I've done my 2 latest trade-ins at Fujiya Camera.
On the other hand, lenses from brands that Map and Fujiya don't regularly sell themselves that are not particularly collectible might not have worthwhile trade-in values. Their trade-in values can be checked from their website on lots of items so I usually do cross-checking from both now.
Trade-in value for 40/1.4 and 35/2.5 in-production versions is 27K at Map Camera. When doing a trade-in against a new purchase & with a 3% coupon, you would get 30.51K yen (as long as the lens is in decent condition), which is not bad considering that they sell for around 42K and 39K as new now. Trade-in value for 35/2.5 is very similar at Fujiya but even a bit better for 40/1.4.
p.2 #18 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
rscheffler wrote:
Why does trade-in at Map take so long? Do they check every function of each item while you wait?
They have a dedicated floor for trade-ins with around 5 reception counters (usually not all are staffed at the same time) and a ticket machine for queue management. There are usually multiple customers doing trade-ins at any time (more crowded when there are special trade-in campaigns with increased trade-in value). Usually you get a ticket with your queue number first, then go to counter when your number is called, present your trade-in items and they take them in for checking and give you some paperwork and a time when to come back for final results (usually 1-2h later). Then most customers go out (I usually go for lunch somewhere in Shinjuku) and come back at the right time. Then you need to take a queue ticket again and wait for your number to be called, then go to counter and get final result / can accept or reject it item by item and get the final payment / points to Map Camera member points card that can be used for buying items. Overall it's a bigger setup for trade-ins with more volume to deal with. I don't know how deeply they check each item but it might not be anything more than what Fujiya Camera does. It's just the bigger scale of the trade-ins setup that makes it take longer.
At Fujiya Camera, you can just talk to any of the staff on their 2 floors of the main shop and they will directly check your trade-in items, taking just up to 10 min to do so, and then you get final results right away. I think there are usually not many customers doing trade-ins at the same time and it works fast and smoothly.
p.2 #19 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
raizans wrote:
What lenses will be discontinued next?
I'm guessing:
- 35mm f/1.4 Nokton Classic: too much competition (LLL, Artizlab, Peace, Mandler)
- 35mm f/2.5 Color-Skopar: superseded by the f/3.5
- 50mm f/1.5 Heliar Classic: niche, short-run item
- 75mm f/1.5 Nokton Vintage Line: to be replaced by an f/2 APO
It's interesting that LLL still hasn’t made a 35/1.4 "pre‑asph" replica, but Cosina seems to sell enough of these simple designs that discontinuing them wouldn’t make sense. Maybe one day they will release a newer version in all‑black or all‑silver, without the chrome ring.
The Voigtländer 50/1.5 Heliar is another lens that didn't make much of a splash in the US, but it's definitely a favorite in Japan.
As for the 75/1.5 Nokton being replaced by an f/2 APO, I think they would complement each other nicely, much like the 28mm, 35mm, and 50mm Nokton vs APO lineup. I could also see a different 75/1.5 variant with a new barrel design in the future.
p.2 #20 · Cosina Voigtländer revived 28/2 Ultron II, 35/2 Ultron II
Fred Miranda wrote:
I could also see a different 75/1.5 variant with a new barrel design in the future.
Not much need for improvement in the CV 75/1.5 Nokton - just make a nice protruding red dot instead of the tiny red mark to find the attachment point to the lens mount and cover the silver version lens hood inside with black.
