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M11-P or SL3 ...

  
 
OwlsEyes
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p.2 #1 · M11-P or SL3 ...


RustyBug wrote:
Gotcha at 40 vs. 60 ... compared to AF (and 24 vs. 60) performance gains. That does have me a bit curious to what AF will be like for the SL3-P. Trying to mentally apply the -P factor from my (former) M240-P (and other -P variants) and how the SL3 variant of a -P might be more "P"erformance oriented. Your point about 40 (M10R) could be equally valid to the SL3-P. Reading some of Panny's literature for the S1R II ... they cite some more "natural" color science improvements (reminiscent of HNCS language) ... and while I understand that Panny's
...Show more

Yeah I think you definitely understand what I'm implying. For comparison, I'm a Nikon Z9/Z8 shooter that has a pair of Leica M cameras because I like the experience when I want to just carry a camera or do street photography. The M's I have could never replace my Nikons, but I like the option of slowing everything down and just focusing on the fundamentals of photography. I have an M8 and M 240, neither are resolution kings or known for their wide dynamic range, yet they fulfill a niche for me when I'm looking for a tendency breaker. Looking at your work, I think the M10R fits that niche. If I were a committed Leica shooter instead of a Nikon shooter who uses a Leica from time to time, I'd probably opt for the M10R because of its reliability and simplicity. I loved the M10 when I had it, but I felt I had too much equity tied into a camera that gets used infrequently.

I see your SL series system as kind of the parallel to my Nikon system. My Nikon's are my pro use bodies, they get beat up, they travel with me, they are shot in the rain and snow, and they are often exposed to salt air, mud, and sand. I need them to work, because they go where the wildlife is or where the weather is. Leica's SL system is highly rated for their weather resistance, and the L-Alliance has an amazing list of available lenses. As a wildlife shooter, I am terribly tempted by the 300-600 f/4 and could imagine pairing that with the 500mm f/5.6, the Leica 24-70 and 70-200. The limit of the Leica L system for my application is the absence of stacked or partially stacked sensors. Here the high-end Nikons, Canons, and Sony's have a huge advantage. The readout speeds are instantaneous and the AF systems are equally fast and responsive. If Leica uses the Panasonic platform to build a camera with a stacked or partially stacked sensor, then their users will be able to really take advantage of the optical benefits that the L-Alliance has to offer. I would wait to see what the SL3-P looks like, as this may be the best of all worlds.

cheers,
bruce



Apr 30, 2026 at 11:42 PM
RexGig0
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p.2 #2 · M11-P or SL3 ...


I think that Bruce/OwlsEyes is making very convincing arguments.

I am neither a pro, nor an expert, but, my M10 Monochrom is a near-equivalent of the M10-R, and, I can shoot color with my original M10. Some tech aspects of the M11/M-EV cameras look interesting, but, it would make more sense for me to buy one of the SL3 options, if I want higher-tech in a Leica camera body. (Actually, to preserve domestic tranquility, I should opt for a Nikon Z8 or Z9, because my wife is devoted to Nikon. We use D5 and D850 cameras, plus, she has added a Z6. She is the more-senior shooter!)




May 01, 2026 at 11:41 AM
flash
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p.2 #3 · M11-P or SL3 ...


Wait for the SL3-P. I’m not convinced it has the S1Rii sensor (although it’s about the same resolution) but it will be the *sports* camera Leica offers for the near future, according to people I’ve spoken too (not Leica people). IQ wise the M10R does 90% of what the M11 does. The extra stuff is fab but not changing you image potential. Moving from an SL2 to any SL3 ready does step things up. The firmware 4.0 was a bigger upgrade than some new hardware releases in the last few years. If the SL3-P has a decent sensor and more than 40MP then you might get close to the DR of the X2D with just a smaller print size. But I’d wait another month to find out. Now is not the time for rash decisions.

However to get *close* to the X2D you will need that 60MP sensor and you will need the better glass. Something newer than the video centric Panasonic primes. Sigma DGDN primes are Ok but ultimately it’s the APO’s that bridge the gap to the HB. You won’t get the long exposure performance of the Hasselblad and really, high res shot is limited enough that I don’t count on it being available for most landscapes.

I’m enjoying my SL3 a lot now and really liking the reporter. It’s daft as it brings nothing new to the table but I just like it more than my vanilla SL3’s. I just like how the grip feels in hand. As much as I like my Hasselblads I also like the SL3, with the right glass. That really means that the Leica kit and the HB kit end up the same size. But you would be consolidating. I have two SL3 lens kits. Light and best. Best is the 24-90 (nothing is as good in L mount even though it was the first lens), 90-280 *or* a set of APO’s. Light is the 28-70 Leica and a sett of DGDN primes plus a Sigma 70-200. This gets you what a standard Canikony kit does but isn’t quite at the APO level.

I just took my entire S kit to Leica in Sydney to trade in anticipation of the SL3-P and the Q3-43M. First time in about ten years I’ve had less cameras this week than last week.

Gordon



May 01, 2026 at 03:55 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #4 · M11-P or SL3 ...


Thanks Gordon.

I hear ya regarding glass choices being a noteworthy factor. I anticipate an SL 75/2 APO in the mix "some day", even though I've presently only dabbled with the L mount glass via the Panny 85/1.8 and Siggy 24-70 II and 500/5.6. I've also demo'd the Siggy 200/2 and the 70-200/2.8 when I picked up the 24-70 II.

Since I've been flirting a bit in the X1D II and X2D arena, my commitment to L glass hasn't been well harnessed yet. Part of my consolidation of bodies (M246 / Q2 / X2D) will convert toward the mix of M / L glass.

Recognizing that "Glass Rules" ...

My present M glass looks like:
24/2.8 ASPH
35/2 ASPH
VM 50/1.5 Vintage II
75/2.4
135/3.4 APO

L glass:
Siggy 24-70 II
Panny 85/1.8
Siggy 500/5.6

Q3M


Hmmm, your point about "long exposures" ... the limitations of the M10R, vs. the SL3 or SL3-P (or M11) ... relative to what a Hassy X2D or X1D II brings to the table.


BTW, I like your "daft" comment about the Reporter / grip.




May 02, 2026 at 09:24 AM
stgrove
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p.2 #5 · M11-P or SL3 ...


Kent
I was thinking you already had the X2D2. Was I incorrect? There are M-XCD converters available and some M lenses do not vignette or if others do one can easily correct in post.

Try renting one as it is an amazing camera. I went away for 3 weeks with one lens 35-100 and never missed a shot, some of which were long distance. Also never needed a tripod. Such a liberating system.

I should stop here as now I'm convincing myself to just get rid of my last L mount gear.



May 03, 2026 at 06:24 AM
brick33308
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p.2 #6 · M11-P or SL3 ...


I didn't get through all the responses above which I'm guessing are well thought out and raise great points, BUT, probably the biggest driver of what gear would be your preferred subject matter to shoot. In my case I'm pretty much a street shooter (fascinated by ordinary people doing what they do when not posing for shots) and not so much into landscape. As such, I often reach for my M11M although now and then for daylight shooting my M11P is superb and gives me the option of shooting both color and b/w. But I am one of those people who thinks in b/w when I'm using the M11M. You've got the Q3M, and I recommend you hold on to that for dear life. I've got one and for me it's the perfect street shooter when I'm not going for a vintage vibe.

And I'm pretty much only into my vintage lenses these days even though I own and used to love the cron 35 APO which just doesn't float my boat anymore.

Given the likely release of the M12 this year (and for me the possibility of it having both rangefinder and EVF focus systems, a combination that would likely lift my skirt), if you can hold off making a decision until it comes out I think that would be a good idea.

I have no helpful thoughts on the SL cams and big lenses since they hold zero interest for me (having come from the world of big honking Nikons and zoom lenses years ago).

Good luck and keep us posted whatever you decide.



May 03, 2026 at 06:45 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #7 · M11-P or SL3 ...


stgrove wrote:
Kent
I was thinking you already had the X2D2. Was I incorrect? There are M-XCD converters available and some M lenses do not vignette or if others do one can easily correct in post.

Try renting one as it is an amazing camera. I went away for 3 weeks with one lens 35-100 and never missed a shot, some of which were long distance. Also never needed a tripod. Such a liberating system.

I should stop here as now I'm convincing myself to just get rid of my last L mount gear.


I have an X2D (not the II version) and an M-XCD adapter. The issue of rolling (electronic) shutter with M lenses is a key aspect (requires good technique and no/slow moving subject matter). The matter of the tripod (relative to M lenses) is that for (very) long exposures, the linear motions may be longer than the impact of the rolling shutter. For that reason (I've not yet tested this), the M + Hassy (electronic shutter) might be more viable than routine shooting with M + Hassy.

Otherwise, it is a matter of having Hassy XCD glass to use their mechanical leaf shutter (which I dig). However (for Kent), the Hassy cannot be my main platform. Simply put, long glass (i.e. 500mm) requires a different platform. My chosen platform for this is the L mount (others will point out the SoNiCan as their choice), as it pairs with my M lenses better (imo).

I hear ya that you find the Hassy very liberating ... but, it would require me to build out two (or three) sets of optics (L / XCD / M) to use it as my main platform. That said, the 75P does call to me, but in the end ... I'm thinking the 75 APO on SL3 / SL3-P will serve me well, recognizing that 75mm on MF is similar to 56mm, then cropping in 100MP to 60MP restores 75mm to 75mm, so I might as well just stick with 75mm on FF at that point.

Which then leaves me with the DR of LONG exposures as the "remaining" rationale for retaining the Hassy. It will be interesting to compare how the S1R II / SL3-P holds up in such application. I wouldn't expect it to be the same, but "how much less" or "how close" is a thought.



May 03, 2026 at 09:36 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #8 · M11-P or SL3 ...


brick33308 wrote:
You've got the Q3M, and I recommend you hold on to that for dear life.


I don't see that one going anywhere ... not, soon anyway.



May 03, 2026 at 09:38 AM
flash
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p.2 #9 · M11-P or SL3 ...


RustyBug wrote:
I have an X2D (not the II version) and an M-XCD adapter. The issue of rolling (electronic) shutter with M lenses is a key aspect (requires good technique and no/slow moving subject matter). The matter of the tripod (relative to M lenses) is that for (very) long exposures, the linear motions may be longer than the impact of the rolling shutter. For that reason (I've not yet tested this), the M + Hassy (electronic shutter) might be more viable than routine shooting with M + Hassy.

Otherwise, it is a matter of having Hassy XCD glass to use their mechanical leaf
...Show more

The S1Rii sensor is excellent. If Leica use it, although I’m not hearing they will, it’ll be right in the ball park. Best I can tell that sensor is also used in the DJI Inspire 3 and Rohnin cameras. It’s a good un. Not quite as good as the SL3 though. That’s still the high res imaging monster to beat.

For the long exposures the SL system is really good. The issue is LENR. You do need it on the small sensor and you don’t on the X2D2. Actually Hasselblad don’t even offer it. If you’re happy using LENR then you can get up to 30 minute metered exposures on the Leica. I shoot a lot in the 8-15 minute range and LENR is a pain.

I see the issue being your desire to use M lenses. I think you’re right that the SL system makes the most sense for you to be able to build out both an AF and M lens system around one body type. It sure does simplify things. I have mostly given up adapting lenses and that’s why I have no issues running multiple bodies. I would buy a camera just to have access to a lens if I wanted but for most that’s just not practical. And if I really were pushed to only have one lens mount it would be L. Right now I have 4. X and L are by far the mains ones. Then E mount for wildlife and GFX for long MF. I’d be more than happy to give up the last two if Hasselblad filled out their lens line up and Leica makes an actual wildlife camera.

If it weren’t for the M lenses you could build a two body MF system. X2D and a GFX100Sii for the 100-200 and 500mm, which is sensational. On my last India trip I took an X2D with primes and a GFX with zooms and it worked out well. That was pre- 35-100 though. Now it’d just be for the 100-200. I also took a GFX500mm as my only super telescope on a road trip and it was fine for casual wildlife. I wouldn’t do than for a full safari though unless I had a specific plan (I do) as I’d have to sacrifice the blackout free shooting I’m used to. The GFX does adapt well but you have to use Fuji menus. Yuck!

IMHO, unless the SL3-P has a stacked (or partially) stacked sensor, it’s not worth the effort. Video shooters will get some advantage from the S1Rii sensor but there’s nothing there over the SL3 for stills shooters. The biggest limitation for action is shutter blackout. More so than frame rates or sensor readout. If I can’t have blackout free shooting I’d rather have the pixels.

Right now the AF of the SL3 is plenty capable. And the IQ is top notch. I’ve been spending time with my 500mm and 60-600 and I could shoot those for casual wildlife, no problem. That’s what I’m using on my upcoming road trip, with a few lighter lenses for hiking and a smaller HB kit (20-35, 35-100, 55V, 90V and 135/TC) for general shooting. But again, I’m not wanting to adapt M lenses. If I need MF I’ll use the V lenses.

Generally I think you have what you need sorted in your head. That’s what’s important. And you can always change your mind. It’s part of the journey.

I strongly suggest you try the Leica *beasts*. The 24-90 and 90-280. If you want a near HB rendering these are the lenses to get. They’re massive but very special. Not so much more detail but rendering that’s just sublime for a zoom. Keep your lighter glass for when you need to carry it long distances. And an APO or two when you want to see how much you can really squeeze from a small sensor.

Gordon



May 03, 2026 at 03:59 PM
Surfnsun
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p.2 #10 · M11-P or SL3 ...


An SL3 with that 90-280 is my exit on the Sony highway.


May 03, 2026 at 07:29 PM
 


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dalegaspi
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p.2 #11 · M11-P or SL3 ...


I've had the SL3 for a while now (i bought it used) and while it is a step forward for a lot of things, IMO it's also step backwards on a lot of things too.

on the plus side.. the 60MP sensor is amazing especially when paired with the APO lenses..the AF is better for the most part...the eye AF is more-or-less reliable but still kind of annoying to use especially when compared with my Nikon which are intuitive. The mobile app integration is top-tier.

Now for the cons.. I do not like the smaller size (I thought the SL2 is the perfect size). I don't like its flip screen implementation and to this day I still absolutely hate that power button. Operational-wise i think it's a bit sluggish and it's not significant improvement over the SL2. The EVF is nice to look at but when it drops resolution and skips frames it makes me prefer the Z9/Z8 EVF is better for me...I was hoping this is going to be a significant improvement over the SL2...and it's not.

Lastly..i couldn't quite put a finger on it but the quality is not as good...I bought mine used..and that memory card door i had to get replaced because it creaked and has a little play which i never had issues with the SL2 or any other camera for that matter. Leica replaced it and it's still not there for me. and why the hell do i put the CF Express card backwards on this thing? very annoying..

I put up with it because, well, the SL APO lenses and the SL3 is the camera that can push what they can do.




May 03, 2026 at 08:46 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #12 · M11-P or SL3 ...


I would skip the M 11 and keep the M 10 r.


May 03, 2026 at 10:17 PM
serhan_
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p.2 #13 · M11-P or SL3 ...


I just saw the reviews for Leica SL 35/75mm APO's on lenstip:

https://www.lenstip.com/717.4-Lens_review-Leica_APO-Summicron-SL_35_mm_f_2_ASPH._Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/700.4-Lens_review-Leica_APO-Summicron-SL_75_mm_f_2_ASPH._Image_resolution.html

Don't ignore the cheaper Sigma's DG DN's and CV APO Lanthar's, except maybe at F2 level.
https://www.lenstip.com/720.4-Lens_review-Voigtlander_Apo_Lanthar_28_mm_f_2_Aspherical_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/613.4-Lens_review-Voigtlander_Apo_Lanthar_50_mm_f_2_Aspherical_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/600.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_65_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

RustyBug wrote:
I hear ya regarding glass choices being a noteworthy factor. I anticipate an SL 75/2 APO in the mix "some day", even though I've presently only dabbled with the L mount glass via the Panny 85/1.8 and Siggy 24-70 II and 500/5.6. I've also demo'd the Siggy 200/2 and the 70-200/2.8 when I picked up the 24-70 II.

Since I've been flirting a bit in the X1D II and X2D arena, my commitment to L glass hasn't been well harnessed yet. Part of my consolidation of bodies (M246 / Q2 / X2D) will convert toward the mix of M / L
...Show more




May 04, 2026 at 01:01 PM
flash
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p.2 #14 · M11-P or SL3 ...


serhan_ wrote:
I just saw the reviews for Leica SL 35/75mm APO's on lenstip:

https://www.lenstip.com/717.4-Lens_review-Leica_APO-Summicron-SL_35_mm_f_2_ASPH._Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/700.4-Lens_review-Leica_APO-Summicron-SL_75_mm_f_2_ASPH._Image_resolution.html

Don't ignore the cheaper Sigma's DG DN's and CV APO Lanthar's, except maybe at F2 level.
https://www.lenstip.com/720.4-Lens_review-Voigtlander_Apo_Lanthar_28_mm_f_2_Aspherical_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/613.4-Lens_review-Voigtlander_Apo_Lanthar_50_mm_f_2_Aspherical_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/600.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_65_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html



Interesting report on the 35. Generally it’s regarded (including Karbe himself) as the best of the Summicron APO’s. I don’t have it but I do have the 21, 28, 50 and 90 and they’re all noticeably more detail rich than the Sigma DGDN lenses I have (20, 45, 50 and 90). And wildly better with CA.

Gordon



May 04, 2026 at 04:25 PM
jigesh
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p.2 #15 · M11-P or SL3 ...


75mm APO SL is the only reason I still have an SL body (SL2). Wonderful lens.
[Also remember reading, as Gorden noted above, 35mm APO SL being Karbe's favorite SL lens.]



May 04, 2026 at 04:55 PM
serhan_
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p.2 #16 · M11-P or SL3 ...


Again these are one copy tests... Sigma 65 dg dn might be their best of the dg dn series... Viltrox Evo lenses might challenge these...
https://www.lenstip.com/715.4-Lens_review-Viltrox_AF_85_mm_f_2_EVO_Image_resolution.html

What surprised me is the Sony 28-70mm f2 at 50mm and 50-150mm f2 at 100mm where they beat the best primes:
https://www.lenstip.com/681.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_28-70_mm_f_2_GM_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/693.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_50-150_mm_f_2_GM_Image_resolution.html


flash wrote:
Interesting report on the 35. Generally it’s regarded (including Karbe himself) as the best of the Summicron APO’s. I don’t have it but I do have the 21, 28, 50 and 90 and they’re all noticeably more detail rich than the Sigma DGDN lenses I have (20, 45, 50 and 90). And wildly better with CA.

Gordon





May 04, 2026 at 05:54 PM
tzhang4284
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p.2 #17 · M11-P or SL3 ...


I think what makes the SL APOs (and the Q3 43mm and the 35mm APO-M) special is the wide open performance with the combination of the sharpness + depth of field.

In my experience with other lenses, you can get comparable sharpness stopped down but you also lose the depth of field so very different look.



May 04, 2026 at 06:28 PM
flash
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p.2 #18 · M11-P or SL3 ...


serhan_ wrote:
Again these are one copy tests... Sigma 65 dg dn might be their best of the dg dn series... Viltrox Evo lenses might challenge these...
https://www.lenstip.com/715.4-Lens_review-Viltrox_AF_85_mm_f_2_EVO_Image_resolution.html

What surprised me is the Sony 28-70mm f2 at 50mm and 50-150mm f2 at 100mm where they beat the best primes:
https://www.lenstip.com/681.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_28-70_mm_f_2_GM_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/693.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_50-150_mm_f_2_GM_Image_resolution.html




I can confirm the Sony f2 zooms essentially make primes redundant. They are fantastic. If you’re Ok with f2 and don’t mind the size they’re just brilliant.

I know of many individual lenses that compete with the Leica APO’s for sharpness and aberrations. But I haven’t seen one that draws like them. There’s something I find difficult to describe. A *transparency* maybe?. The abrupt fall off? Leica’s APO’s (including the 90-280 and near APO 24-90) all have it. Also the Leica’s are a full set of matched glass. No other matched set of photo primes comes close.

Gordon



May 04, 2026 at 07:37 PM
old-gregg
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p.2 #19 · M11-P or SL3 ...


flash wrote:
I can confirm the Sony f2 zooms essentially make primes redundant. They are fantastic. If you’re Ok with f2 and don’t mind the size they’re just brilliant.


It's like saying "McDonald's makes steakhouses redundant. If you don't mind diarrhea it's just brilliant". Context matters, I suppose, so let me clarify: if you want a rational person to carry a 400g+ lens, not only it needs to be $0, he also must be paid for pain and suffering. The only two things that matter about a lens manufactured in 2026 is its weight and the presence of a real aperture ring.



May 04, 2026 at 09:59 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #20 · M11-P or SL3 ...


jigesh wrote:
75mm APO SL is the only reason I still have an SL body (SL2). Wonderful lens.
[Also remember reading, as Gorden noted above, 35mm APO SL being Karbe's favorite SL lens.]



Curious how you find the responsiveness of the 75 APO.

I could see myself using the 75 APO on the SL body (SL3 / SL3-P) as a mainstay (vs. the current Panny 85/1.8 on SL2-S).



May 04, 2026 at 10:28 PM
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