anselwannab wrote:
He says that you should always use the electronic shutter unless the lights will strobe, or action shots.
Big joke. I can shoot a building then see an "action" street scene then enter a shop or a café with strobe lights.
I will not change the shutter configuration each time.
So I stick with the hybrid shutter 99% of the time. It works fine.
I'm guessing by the term strobe, he meant repeating stroboscopic cycle. Not to be confused with a single flash of short duration from a "strobe".
That, and action will be relative to angular motion speed. Focal length,subject distance and actual subject vs camera position speed relative. If that action is within the threshold then, all is fine. Outside it, and effects can occur.
pmeheut wrote:
Big joke. I can shoot a building then see an "action" street scene then enter a shop or a café with strobe lights.
I will not change the shutter configuration each time.
So I stick with the hybrid shutter 99% of the time. It works fine.
Electronic shutter is a big issue for those shooting street photography which is the main usage of the M body.
People are walking on the streets, cars are in movement and the photographer may not be perfectly still. It's a mistake to think that only fast action causes image skew with a slow 1/10s sensor read-out. Thorsten says he does not shoot car racing so this it's a non issue. One does not need to go to these extreme to see rolling shutter. Any small camera/subject movement will cause a slight skew so why risk getting an unusable image?
This would be resolved if Leica equips the next model with a Sony stacked sensor but personally I think that a mechanical shutter should never be removed from the M.
With a 1/10 scan speed electronic shutter should be reserved for completely static subjects, with camera mounted on a tripod, or for cameras with fast stacked sensor scan speeds.
When I can mange to get through one of Overgaard's videos, I sometimes wonder if he has ever shot a modern technically advanced camera. He seems to have no idea of the current state of the art.
1bwana1 wrote:
With a 1/10 scan speed electronic shutter should be reserved for completely static subjects, with camera mounted on a tripod, or for cameras with fast stacked sensor scan speeds.
When I can mange to get through one of Overgaard's videos, I sometimes wonder if he has ever shot a modern technically advanced camera. He seems to have no idea of the current state of the art.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I think that a mechanical shutter should never be removed from the M.
airfrogusmc wrote:
I totally agree.
+1
If the electronic shutter actually superceded the capability of the mechanical shutter in ALL instances, then it could be a point of consideration. But, since it clearly does not, and cannot (current technology) function properly in ALL instances ... then, it can only serve as an augmentation to, not a replacement for a mechanical shutter.
If the electronic shutter actually superceded the capability of the mechanical shutter in ALL instances, then it could be a point of consideration. But, since it clearly does not, and cannot (current technology) function properly in ALL instances ... then, it can only serve as an augmentation to, not a replacement for a mechanical shutter.
Even if Leica moves to a stack sensor on a future model, currently, banding is still an issue with modern cameras with stack sensors. Some mirrorless cameras offer frequency compensation but it still not perfect with multiple sources of artificial lighting under different frequencies.
Still, at least we would be able to shoot street photography (or anything that moves) in electronic mode without having to worry about skew (jello effect) ruining our images.
RustyBug wrote:
I'm guessing by the term strobe, he meant repeating stroboscopic cycle. Not to be confused with a single flash of short duration from a "strobe".
That, and action will be relative to angular motion speed. Focal length,subject distance and actual subject vs camera position speed relative. If that action is within the threshold then, all is fine. Outside it, and effects can occur.
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Fred Miranda wrote:
Electronic shutter is a big issue for those shooting street photography which is the main usage of the M body.
People are walking on the streets, cars are in movement and the photographer may not be perfectly still. It's a mistake to think that only fast action causes image skew with a slow 1/10s sensor read-out. Thorsten says he does not shoot car racing so this it's a non issue. One does not need to go to these extreme to see rolling shutter. Any small camera/subject movement will cause a slight skew so why risk getting an unusable image?
This would be resolved if Leica equips the next model with a Sony stacked sensor but personally I think that a mechanical shutter should never be removed from the M....Show more →
Exactly. When I’m shooting on the street, which is most of the time, either I’m moving or the subjects are moving, or we’re both moving. And at close distances—my ideal—motion effects are amplified. Overgaard’s “expertise” certainly doesn’t extend to actual street photography.
The electronic shutter just seems like a niche tool until you get a global shutter imaging chip? Just seems like the ability to shoot silently isn’t worth the downsides, for now. I mean, silent is good, but you are still pointing a camera at someone…. Not very stealthy.
anselwannab wrote:
The electronic shutter just seems like a niche tool until you get a global shutter imaging chip? Just seems like the ability to shoot silently isn’t worth the downsides, for now. I mean, silent is good, but you are still pointing a camera at someone…. Not very stealthy.
I think that a quiet shutter is welcome but to me, it feels weird taking a picture with zero sound. Again, it moves away from the mechanic feel and sound that contributes to the shooting experience.
Perhaps Leica should make a separate M body that focuses on electronics rather than mechanical aspects. A camera with built-in EVF and stacked sensor for fast sensor read-out. It's no longer a rangefinder but many shooters seems to want this.
anselwannab wrote:
The electronic shutter just seems like a niche tool until you get a global shutter imaging chip? Just seems like the ability to shoot silently isn’t worth the downsides, for now. I mean, silent is good, but you are still pointing a camera at someone…. Not very stealthy.
Some of us manage just fine. (28mm lens, uncropped, subject distance about 5 feet, mechanical shutter)
+1 for the mechanical shutter ... i.e. tactile feedback.
Even my Q2 is so light, that I wish it had a bit more tactile feedback. Quiet is one thing, silent is another ... tactile feedback is something else. My ideal is "whisper quiet" (not silent) and a crisp, light tactile. If it's a whisper to my ear (inches away), it's not really going to be heard by others multiple feet away in any meaningful way.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I think that a quiet shutter is welcome but to me, it feels weird taking a picture with zero sound. Again, it moves away from the mechanic feel and sound that contributes to the shooting experience.
Perhaps Leica should make a separate M body that focuses on electronics rather than mechanical aspects. A camera with built-in EVF and global shutter. It's no longer a rangefinder but it could do well for them.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I think that a quiet shutter is welcome but to me, it feels weird taking a picture with zero sound. Again, it moves away from the mechanic feel and sound that contributes to the shooting experience.
Perhaps Leica should make a separate M body that focuses on electronics rather than mechanical aspects. A camera with built-in EVF and stacked sensor for fast sensor read-out. It's no longer a rangefinder but many shooters seems to want this.
I hope they keep both EVF and optical – versus either ignoring an EVF or dropping the rangefinder:
I saw that discussion, in the German language part of the LUF, and am wondering the same thing, about the ZM. I really do like my Zeiss 4,5/21mm ZM, but have only used it on my M 246 Monochrom. I had thought that I might try to buy a 21mm SEM, this year, to use on my M10, but, an opportunity to acquire a well-preserved, pre-owned APO Summicron-M 75mm ASPH presented itself. My budget will probably not recover, until 2023, at which time adding an M11 might be a realistic consideration. (Unless, of course, I decide to stay on the Monochrom path, in which case, color shifts will not matter.)
One does not need to go to these extreme to see rolling shutter. Any small camera/subject movement will cause a slight skew so why risk getting an unusable image? 
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