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ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!

  
 
Paul Z
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p.14 #1 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Images look gorgeous. Hope they remake the 28mm and 100mm


Feb 25, 2025 at 07:21 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.14 #2 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Kalainen wrote:
it would bring something interesting and provocative to the photo lens culture which so dominantly about technical perfection (sharpness, LoCA, etc.). This time it would be more about the lens rendering and characteristics, just as we wanted, right? This would be a nice bold statement to make things interesting again.

Personally I don't have a clue, but it is going to be a 100% certain that this is going to divide people's opinions and we going to have a fierce discussions about the LoCA/color fringing, is it Otus name worthy, etc. Time to get popcorn ready..


Price is also going to be a big confounding factor in that debate. I think of 'technical perfection' as "costing more" than 'rendering and characteristics', so if they're roughly Milvus-grade in the former but superior in the latter, whether that's worth double the price is going to be controversial. Yes, they're much cheaper than the [real] Otus, and we have had many years of inflation since the introduction those lenses or the Milvus (though both remain available new at their original prices, for whatever that's worth), but as you allude to we've also probably had advances in design techniques/software, manufacturing, and materials science.



Feb 25, 2025 at 08:02 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #3 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


rscheffler wrote:
DPR review has sample images from the 50:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7527277797/zeiss-otus-ml-50mm-85mm-f1p4-lenses

Direct gallery link:

https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/9487876443/zeiss-otus-ml-50mm-f1-4-pre-production-sample-gallery/7168911996

In high contrast transitions wide open there is some LoCA/color fringing...


A little bit of LoCA/color fringing, but to my eyes it is really good control of axial CA from an f/1.4 lens. Those wine glasses and wrenches were a real torture test and this lens did quite well, IMO. I don't expect perfection on this issue and I would be quite fine with what I see, but that is me. Honestly, I am a lot more worried about flare control with the extensive ghosting in a couple of images, but with flare the issue always is not if it produces flare, but rather how easy is it to change the framing slightly to avoid the flare.



Feb 25, 2025 at 08:04 AM
Alan Parker
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p.14 #4 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!





Feb 25, 2025 at 08:26 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #5 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Lee Saxon wrote:
Price is also going to be a big confounding factor in that debate. I think of 'technical perfection' as "costing more" than 'rendering and characteristics', so if they're roughly Milvus-grade in the former but superior in the latter, whether that's worth double the price is going to be controversial. Yes, they're much cheaper than the [real] Otus, and we have had many years of inflation since the introduction those lenses or the Milvus (though both remain available new at their original prices, for whatever that's worth), but as you allude to we've also probably had advances in design techniques/software,
...Show more

The 50mm in particular appears to be a much better performer technically than the 50 f/1.4 Milvus. Here are the data sheets for the Milvus and new Otus ML respectively:

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/photography/datasheets/en/milvus-lenses/datasheet-zeiss-milvus-1450.pdf

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/photography/datasheets/en/otus-ml-lenses/datasheet-zeiss-otus-ml-1450.pdf

There really is no comparison in the MTF charts. The new Otus is much better and the 50 f/1.4 Milvus had quite a lot of axial CA and it didn't go away until the lens was well stopped down. This new Otus 50 ML, might not have perfect correction of axial CA at f/1.4, but from the samples it appears to my eye to have very good correction of that aberration. This lens technically looks quite good and in one way I expect it to be better than the original Otus 55 f/1.4--no onion rings in the bokeh, which was evident sometimes with the original Otus. In the last ten years this problem, however, has been a lot easier to handle and Cosina who is building these lenses seems to know how to do that well.

That said from the samples I do think there will may be a few technical issues. First, football shaped out of focus highlights extend pretty far into the frame, so if that annoys you and you really like round bokeh balls it doesn't look like this lens will be great on that dimension. Second, some of the examples have flare with a lot of ghosting. Will that be typical or were those just extreme examples that could be easily avoided. Third, will we see decagonal shapes in the out of focus highlights when these lenses are stopped down? That is a problem with some 10-bladed aperture lenses from Voigtlander, and we will have to see if that carries over to these new Milvus lenses. I have seen enough stopped down images with bokeh balls to just yet.



Feb 25, 2025 at 09:12 AM
dvoss
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p.14 #6 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!



Interesting that Zeiss is using the Otus name for these new lenses. The optical designs shown in the data sheets are quite different to the original Otus lenses.




Feb 25, 2025 at 09:14 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #7 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


dvoss wrote:
Interesting that Zeiss is using the Otus name for these new lenses. The optical designs shown in the data sheets are quite different to the original Otus lenses.



Yes, indeed. They appear to be all new designs quite different from the old designs.



Feb 25, 2025 at 09:15 AM
Jman13
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p.14 #8 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Man, the DPReview sample images are, well, bad. It's hard to do too many takeaways given that they missed focus a lot of the time, or used shutter speeds way too slow for what they were shooting, or they underexposed, or whatever. (Reall, 1/60s for birds? Even if they're standing still, anyone who shoots birds know they twitch and blur themselves all the time).

Anyway, even in the ones that are focused correctly, I'm very confused on the 50/1.4. It doesn't look as sharp as any of the current top end 50s from any of the big 3 manufacturers, and has more longitudinal CA as well. Quite a bit more, to be honest. I do think the bokeh overall looks really nice outside of the color fringing, but the samples seem to lack a lot of the Zeiss bite that its lenses usually show.

I'm not saying the lens looks bad, but lenses have progressed quite a lot in the last 10 years, and these look like they'd be really good quality from a lens in 2015. But today, we have the 50/1.2L, Z 50/1.2S and FE 50/1.2GM, and all three are absolutely spectacular lenses, are $500 cheaper, have AF, AND all appear to be optically superior to the Otus 50/1.4 ML. Less fringing, sharper, higher contrast at the focus point. Less mechanical vignetting.

Like, at these prices, and manual focus, these lenses basically needed to be optically perfect to really justify the cost.



Feb 25, 2025 at 09:24 AM
RoamingScott
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p.14 #9 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


The people who do the test shots for DPR barely have a photographic pulse. It's sometimes infuriating that such a large site has such a vacuum of competence in that department.

Beyond that, however, the number of people that will be able to adequately focus a lens of this size wide open, handheld, and get a good composition at the same time is dismally small. It will be exceedingly hard to know what these are really capable of by looking at online samples. Note that I'm including myself in this camp, I'd never buy an Otus for this reason.



Feb 25, 2025 at 09:26 AM
dvoss
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p.14 #10 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, indeed. They appear to be all new designs quite different from the old designs.


Although in their marketing bumf, Zeiss say the 50ML/55 are both Apo Distagons and the 85ML/85 are both Apo Sonnars which are the actual design labels. So I guess Otus is whatever they want it to be (and the name of some bird or other).

Edit: Correction - they call the original 85 an Apo Planar.








Feb 25, 2025 at 09:34 AM
 


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Steve Spencer
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p.14 #11 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Jman13 wrote:
Man, the DPReview sample images are, well, bad. It's hard to do too many takeaways given that they missed focus a lot of the time, or used shutter speeds way too slow for what they were shooting, or they underexposed, or whatever. (Reall, 1/60s for birds? Even if they're standing still, anyone who shoots birds know they twitch and blur themselves all the time).

Anyway, even in the ones that are focused correctly, I'm very confused on the 50/1.4. It doesn't look as sharp as any of the current top end 50s from any of the big 3 manufacturers, and
...Show more

I agree that the samples are pretty bad with a lot of silly mistakes. I do think that makes comparing the performance to other lenses difficult. After seeing the MTFs from Zeiss, I am not worried about sharpness. I do think the lens will not be as sharp at the Sony, Nikon, and Canon lenses even though it has a narrower aperture. It will not be unsharp, however, and it is actually pretty close to the level of sharpness that I like wide open on a fast lens. I like a lens to be a little less sharp wide open, but then sharpen up stopped down, which gives me some flexibility in how I shoot.

That said, I have no doubt that many will react with concerns that the lens is not sharp enough wide open. That, lack of full sharpness wide open, however, is typical with Zeiss lenses. Even with all the original Otus lenses, except the 100. I think we will need more testing to determine the correction for axial CA. The samples show there is some, but I think we really need side by side tests in the same situation to evaluate it well. From the samples I get a different impression. I don't think it is as bad as you suggest, but I agree with theses samples that is hard to judge.

Finally, I also agree that this lens is priced a bit high. I was hoping it would come in at $2,000 to be more in the price range of the Sony/Nikon/Canon lenses, that are $2000, $2,100, and $2,200 respectively. In some ways, it is really is a different market, because if you want AF, then these Otus lenses are not likely to draw you away from the premium Sony/Nikon/Canon options, but if you like MF, as I do, then it would be nice if you weren't paying a premium for it. At least the 85 Otus ML is in the price range of the 85 f/1.2 lenses from Nikon and Canon (and presumably where Sony would price a lens if they build an f/1.2 lens).



Feb 25, 2025 at 09:55 AM
Jman13
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p.14 #12 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


I will say the Art of Photography video shows significantly better sharpness and contrast than the DPReview samples do (amazing what competence can do). Still significantly more CA than I’d expect for a $2,500 APO lens. And it’s still going to be a very hard sell vs the first party AF 50s, which are all also exceptional.

Edited on Feb 25, 2025 at 09:59 AM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2025 at 09:58 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.14 #13 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Both new Zeiss lenses are avaialble at B&H now!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/february-zeiss-announcement/ci/60443


ZEISS Otus ML 50mm f/1.4 Lens (Sony E) Specifications:

Maximum Aperture f/1.4
Minimum Aperture f/16
Lens Mount Sony E
Lens Format Coverage Full-Frame
Angle of View 47°
Minimum Focus Distance From Camera Sensor: 1.6' / 50 cm
Macro Reproduction Ratio 1:7.3
Optical Design 14 Elements in 11 Groups
Diaphragm Blades 10
Focus Type Manual Focus
Image Stabilization No
Filter Size 67 mm (Front)
Dimensions (ø x L) 3 x 3.9" / 77 x 100 mm
Weight 1.5 lb / 677 g

--------------

ZEISS Otus ML 85mm f/1.4 Lens (Sony E) Specifications:

Maximum Aperture f/1.4
Minimum Aperture f/16
Lens Mount Sony E
Lens Format Coverage Full-Frame
Angle of View 30°
Minimum Focus Distance 2.6' / 80 cm
Macro Reproduction Ratio 1:8.1
Optical Design 15 Elements in 11 Groups
Diaphragm Blades 10
Focus Type Manual Focus
Image Stabilization No
Filter Size 77 mm (Front)
Dimensions (ø x L) 3.5 x 4.4" / 88 x 113 mm
Weight 2.3 lb / 1033 g




ZEISS Otus ML 50mm f/1.4 Lens (Sony E)






ZEISS Otus ML 85mm f/1.4 Lens (Sony E)




Feb 25, 2025 at 09:59 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #14 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


dvoss wrote:
Although in their marketing bumf, Zeiss say the 50ML/55 are both Apo Distagons and the 85ML/85 are both Apo Sonnars which are the actual design labels. So I guess Otus is whatever they want it to be (and the name of some bird or other).

Edit: Correction - they call the original 85 an Apo Planar.



In Zeiss land, Otus has simply been f/1.4 and APO. A fast and highly corrected lens. Very few if any other lenses have been developed that are both f/1.4 and APO. Distagon, Sonnar, and Planar are general classes of lens type, but the actually designs within those classes often vary considerably. In this case both the original Otus 55 f/14 and the new Otus 50 f/1.4 ML are generally distagons, but the specific designs are quite different. And as you say the original Otus 85 f/1.4 is a Planar, while the new Otus 85 f/1.4 is a Sonnar, so not even in the same general class of design and the new lens' design is quite different from the original lens.







Feb 25, 2025 at 10:00 AM
NJPhotographer
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p.14 #15 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Beautiful lenses. Unfortunately they are manual focus.


Feb 25, 2025 at 10:06 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.14 #16 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Jman13 wrote:
I will say the Art of Photography video shows significantly better sharpness and contrast than the DPReview samples do (amazing what competence can do). Still significantly more CA than I’d expect for a $2,500 APO lens. And it’s still going to be a very hard sell vs the first party AF 50s, which are all also exceptional.


I agree with you on everything except the CA issue. Sure there is some, but that is generally true of all f/1.4 and faster lenses. Having owned both the Zeiss 28 Otus and the 55 Otus, it was true of both those lenses too. As I know you know, APO by definition is not a lens totally free from axial CA, but rather exactly what Zeiss quotes in their promotional material which is identical focusing of three specific wavelengths. So, I don't know whether these lenses are totally APO or not, but there obviously is a fudge factor in this definition because what precision level are we talking with "identical."

Personally, I don't get hung up on the label as it has been used to describe lenses with a wide variety of performance. For example, I had a Voigtlander 90 f/3.5 APO lens for Canon EF mount and it had among the worst purple fringing of any lens I have owned. What really matters is how the lens performs and how it performs relative to other lenses and for that we are going to need to see side by side comparisons in the same situation. I am not sure at all that it will do better than the premium Sony/Nikon/Canon alternatives, but I don't expect it to be much worse either, but that awaits to be seen. I have used the Sony f/1.2 GM extensively and it is remarkably low in CA in my experience, but it too is not free from axial CA.

So, it is early and we will just have to wait to see how this lens performs as more people get it in their hands and can test it more thoroughly. The samples are great. They do tell us that the lens will not be free from axial CA, but that was a lot to expect with an f/1.4 lens. I don't think they tell us about relative performance, however.



Feb 25, 2025 at 10:15 AM
LBJ2
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p.14 #17 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Steve Spencer wrote:
A little bit of LoCA/color fringing, but to my eyes it is really good control of axial CA from an f/1.4 lens. Those wine glasses and wrenches were a real torture test and this lens did quite well, IMO. I don't expect perfection on this issue and I would be quite fine with what I see, but that is me. Honestly, I am a lot more worried about flare control with the extensive ghosting in a couple of images, but with flare the issue always is not if it produces flare, but rather how easy is it to change
...Show more

Agree. I would definitely describe as minimal LoCA/color fringing given the torture test and images presented by DPR and from what I have seen...so far. The results of DPR's flare control were for me also a bit surprising given a Zeiss *T coated lens--but I need to see more and looks like those "generously" sized Otus ML lens hoods might be more of a requirement than optional for some lighting/scene situations.



Feb 25, 2025 at 10:28 AM
mike reid
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p.14 #18 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


I'll stick with my old school Otus lenses


Feb 25, 2025 at 10:48 AM
Jonas B
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p.14 #19 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


The Art of Photography video, at 8:55 we can admire quite some CA, green and magenta in the rails, the wagoons and to the left in the image. That, the outright ugly cat eye forms at f/1.4, the manual focusing and a weight at 600+ grams at USD 2500 (strange, compared to GBP 2100 incl 19% VAT) I can't help to think the lens is DOA.

Also, If we all contribute with a a dollar or two DPReview may be able to buy a tripod. :-)



Feb 25, 2025 at 10:58 AM
Jman13
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p.14 #20 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


I know APO doesn’t always mean completely free of CA, but this has quite a lot. More than the 50/1.2 GM. More than the 50/1.4 GM (of which it is more closely a direct competitor), and more than the RF 50/1.2L. I haven’t used the Z 50/1.2 enough to make a call.

It would be one thing in an $800 lens, but this has more CA than my $600 Nikon Z 50/1.8S, even when it’s stopped down to f/1.8.

If you’re paying $2,500 for a large manual focus prime, it really needs to be aberration free or darn close to it to be worth the extra cost. When the competition’s AF 50mm are better and cheaper, it becomes an issue.

Outside of the CA and some wonky mechanical vignetting it’ll renders quite beautifully, but I sort of expected something along the lines of the Nikon Plena bokeh (worh low mech vignetting) with Voigtländer APO-Lanthar levels of CA correction and sharpness. Maybe that was too high of expectations, but a $2,500 manual focus 50/1.4 raises those expectations.

Steve Spencer wrote:
I agree with you on everything except the CA issue. Sure there is some, but that is generally true of all f/1.4 and faster lenses. Having owned both the Zeiss 28 Otus and the 55 Otus, it was true of both those lenses too. As I know you know, APO by definition is not a lens totally free from axial CA, but rather exactly what Zeiss quotes in their promotional material which is identical focusing of three specific wavelengths. So, I don't know whether these lenses are totally APO or not, but there obviously is a fudge factor in
...Show more



Feb 25, 2025 at 11:27 AM
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