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ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!

  
 
zeitlos
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p.19 #1 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Makten wrote:
Because Batis lenses are Tamron lenses and have nothing in common with Loxias except for the fake marketing Zeiss badge.


wow…



Mar 01, 2025 at 01:54 AM
Makten
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p.19 #2 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


zeitlos wrote:
wow…


Yes, wow. Who could have known that a series of lenses that share absolutely zero characteristics with Zeiss lenses were not designed by Zeiss?

https://radojuva.com/en/2022/09/zeiss-batis-tamron/

Edit: There is even an old thread here about it: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1514000/5/



Mar 01, 2025 at 01:59 AM
zeitlos
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p.19 #3 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!



Makten wrote:
Yes, wow. Who could have known that a series of lenses that share absolutely zero characteristics with Zeiss lenses were not designed by Zeiss?

https://radojuva.com/en/2022/09/zeiss-batis-tamron/

Edit: There is even an old thread here about it: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1514000/5/


I know this thread. Nevertheless, I find your statements very presumptuous. But this is our time.




Mar 01, 2025 at 04:46 AM
Makten
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p.19 #4 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


zeitlos wrote:
I know this thread. Nevertheless, I find your statements very presumptuous. But this is our time.



Can you mention anything except the Zeiss badge that indicates that the Batis lenses are designed and/or manufactured by Zeiss? What in my "presumtions" do you think is wrong, and how so?

Edit: By the way, this is a very common marketing trick. You are probably aware that Leica sell Panasonic cameras with the Leica badge, and Hasselblad used Sony cameras for a while.



Mar 01, 2025 at 06:21 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.19 #5 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


philip_pj wrote:
Lee, I did not explain well. Zeiss have an already existing cine range of Nanos that might have made a better choice for release as E/Z/RF lenses in smaller lens bodies, the way DZO/Thypoch has managed its two ranges: Simera and Simera-C (both sets are in reality cine lenses, identical optical formulae).

Converting cine lenses back to stills lenses is like taking off medieval body armor, so they would have been light enough to interested many more buyers. (see below the 24mm and 35mm Nanos)

They average about $4000, and are tailor made for Sony E-mount. That indicates similar pricing for
...Show more

We might still see some of these lenses either as Otus lenses or a new iteration of Loxia lenses with faster apertures or a reintroduction of Milvus lenses in mirrorless or perhaps a new line of lenses (what bird would they use this time). I think Zeiss needed to design at least these first two Otuses from the ground up for mirrorless stills photography to make it clear they still care about stills photography. If they simply ported the nano lenses, it would look like photography was an after thought. Now that they have made at least these first two Otuses (and perhaps a couple more), they can port those Nano lenses to stills and it won't look like they are only trying to make a buck in stills off their cine lenses.

I hope they actually do bring these or other nice designs to mirrorless. I would love to see a second generation of Loxia lenses with new lighter more ergonomic housings with better contacts (perhaps let Cosina make them this time), and maybe a new 35 and 50. That plus a set of 4 or 5 Otuses, and a line of ported Nano lenses would be a nice compelling addition to what is available for people like me who prefer manual focus lenses.



Mar 01, 2025 at 10:15 AM
wastedimages
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p.19 #6 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


speedgraphic wrote:
Batis Lenses - AF Zeiss lenses for Sony? Sounds amazing save for all the Zony lenses available at the time.
.


As a Sony shooter I can tell you the Batis lenses were head and shoulders above the Zony lenses.
I have a Nikon Zf, and if they bring a high MP Zfii out, I will buy that as well, but I will always keep 1 current Sony body for my Batis lenses (I own them all), as I love those lenses, they have something that none of my other Sony glass has. That includes my GM's




Mar 01, 2025 at 06:21 PM
wastedimages
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p.19 #7 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


burningheart wrote:
People get too wrapped up on everything must be AF/VR/IS. Not all photographers are in need of those features for a portion of their photography. Some photographers are more interested in the final image created or a certain astetic and simply don't require AF/VR/IS. Zeiss has had many requests for several years on making the Otus line available for the mirrorlesss mounts for Sony,Canon, and Nikon. Since each brand of mirrorless cameras have the same mount for their respective line of cameras theses Otus' will also work on the average Canon,Sony and Nikon offerings. Though I don't see an average
...Show more


Completely agree, I am determined that my Nikon Zf will never see an AF lens. I have been building up a collection of Zeiss Jena lenses for it, and will supplement the missing FL's with Zeiss C/Y or ZF mount lenses.
I have my Sony for AF, and it will get used, alot. My Zf is for me to enjoy photography which means MF, I really enjoy the control that gives me and the slowing down of the process makes it more enjoyable (for me)



Mar 01, 2025 at 06:40 PM
Bacalhau
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p.19 #8 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


I am surprised with 2 other things:
- the Nikon and Sony thread about the Otus ML seems to be the same
- there is no Canon version of this thread

From what I am seeing from samples, the only advantage on this "new" series is the weight and size - IQ got compromised.
I am keeping my oem Otus lenses, all 4 plus 1 if you ever agree that the 135mm is pretty much in the same league.
Don't really understand this new line, since they almost look like same old trick canon played with the super-teles ( 400 and up) of just changing the flange mount.
otoh, yes, I wish Zeiss would come out with a true ML series manual or AF that woulkd keep the signatures of the old Otus series



Mar 02, 2025 at 01:41 PM
Schwarzlicht
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p.19 #9 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Makten wrote:
Can you mention anything except the Zeiss badge that indicates that the Batis lenses are designed and/or manufactured by Zeiss? What in my "presumtions" do you think is wrong, and how so?

Edit: By the way, this is a very common marketing trick. You are probably aware that Leica sell Panasonic cameras with the Leica badge, and Hasselblad used Sony cameras for a while.



Your assertion that Zeiss deceives, employs counterfeit Zeiss emblems, and that Batis lenses bear no resemblance to Zeiss lenses merits reconsideration. It would be prudent to follow the proper sequence: (1. think, 2. write). For your statement permits no favorable inference regarding your character. Did your knowledge stem from that linked website, which is so laden with advertisements that it inspires trepidation about infecting one's computer? I truly fail to comprehend the uproar that ensued a few years ago when someone discovered in the forums that the Batis series is produced not in Zeiss's manufacturing facility in Germany but rather by an overseas partner. And? Such excessive agitation over nothing! Outsourcing is standard practice in the optics industry. Sigma manufactures for other brands, and Cosina produces lenses for Voigtländer. Are GM lenses, in part, developed by Tokina? What is the issue? Whenever the name Zeiss is mentioned, there is invariably a flurry of excitement, and some seem to develop a peculiar inclination to critique when Zeiss is involved. The Batis series falls under the label "Designed by Zeiss," rather than "Made in Germany." Zeiss asserts that its manufacturing partners adhere to stringent guidelines, with optical formulas, coatings (T*), and calibration conducted under Zeiss supervision. When Zeiss claims to have developed the Batis series, I find that credible—your assertion, however, is not. The role of the partner in the manufacturing process is inconsequential to me. Whether certain mechanical components, such as the focus drive or the camera/lens electronic interface, originate from the manufacturing partner is likewise unimportant. All Batis lenses feature the Zeiss T* coating. The images exhibit the high contrast and, at times, extreme micro-contrast characteristic of Zeiss. The skin reproduction in portraits appears remarkably natural. The tonal gradations are exceptionally clean and nuanced. Under all lighting conditions, the images demonstrate striking color fidelity—truly emblematic of Zeiss. Furthermore, the superb craftsmanship and quality are evident; the lenses, after ten years of rigorous use, look as though they were purchased only a few hours ago. I cannot fathom how this is possible. There are no signs of wear even after so many years. Even the black finish of the housing has not faded due to years of sun exposure, remaining pristine and scratch-free. In contrast, my Sony lenses all bear signs of use at some point. Among all E-Mount lenses, I believe the Batis lenses still possess the best weather sealing by a significant margin. Rain, snow, thick fog, dust, humid salty air, a fierce sandstorm, and the waves of the North Sea pose no challenge to Batis lenses. Should you disassemble a Batis lens, you will find an intricate, thick sealing within. Inside the seal, you may discover sand grains or dust; however, none of that breaches the housing. In truth, I found your comment so absurd that I initially hesitated to respond.




Mar 02, 2025 at 02:17 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.19 #10 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Bacalhau wrote:
I am surprised with 2 other things:
- the Nikon and Sony thread about the Otus ML seems to be the same
- there is no Canon version of this thread

From what I am seeing from samples, the only advantage on this "new" series is the weight and size - IQ got compromised.
I am keeping my oem Otus lenses, all 4 plus 1 if you ever agree that the 135mm is pretty much in the same league.
Don't really understand this new line, since they almost look like same old trick canon played with the super-teles ( 400 and up) of just changing
...Show more

These lenses are completely new optical formulas, that have very little in common with the old DSLR Otus lenses. The data sheets from Zeiss make that clear. Here are the data sheets for the new Otus 50 ML and the Otus 55 respectively:

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/photography/datasheets/en/otus-ml-lenses/datasheet-zeiss-otus-ml-1450.pdf

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/photography/datasheets/en/otus-lenses/datasheet-zeiss-otus-1455.pdf

They don't even have the same number of elements and groups. The new ML Otus 50 has 14 elements in 11 groups. The old Otus 55 has 12 elements in 10 groups. The new Otus 50 ML has two Asph elements and 4 APD elements. The old Otus 55 had just one Asph element and 5 APD elements. The new Otus 50 ML has slight pincushion distortion and the old Otus 55 had slight barellel distortion. They are just really different designs.

The same is true for the new Otus 85 ML vs. the old Otus 85 for DSLR. Here are their data sheets:

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/photography/datasheets/en/otus-ml-lenses/datasheet-zeiss-otus-ml-1485.pdf

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/consumer-products/downloads/photography/datasheets/en/otus-lenses/datasheet-zeiss-otus-1485.pdf

The new Otus 85 ML has 15 elements in 11 groups the old Otus 85 has 11 elements in 9 groups. The new Otus 85 has 2 Asph elements and 5 APD elements. The old Otus 85 has one Asph element and 6 APD elements. The new Otus 85 ML has slight barrel distortion and the old Otus 85 has slight pincushion distortion. And the two 85 Otus lenses are not even the same basic type of design. The new Otus 85 ML is a Sonnar design and the old Otus 85 is a planar design. They really aren't close at all in design.

These are brand new designs and I don't think they are compromised, just different. Having had the Otus 55 for DSLR and from the reviews I would say in some ways the new lens seems better (e.g., the bokeh looks really nice), and in other ways the old lens was better (e.g., axial CA wide open, but not by f/2, looks like it is probably a bit worse). There are no reviews of the new Otus 85 yet, so we have very little idea how it will actually perform.



Mar 02, 2025 at 02:19 PM
 


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Makten
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p.19 #11 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Schwarzlicht wrote:
Your assertion that Zeiss deceives, employs counterfeit Zeiss emblems, and that Batis lenses bear no resemblance to Zeiss lenses merits reconsideration. It would be prudent to follow the proper sequence: (1. think, 2. write). For your statement permits no favorable inference regarding your character. Did your knowledge stem from that linked website, which is so laden with advertisements that it inspires trepidation about infecting one's computer? I truly fail to comprehend the uproar that ensued a few years ago when someone discovered in the forums that the Batis series is produced not in Zeiss's manufacturing facility in Germany but rather
...Show more

Sorry, but your post is completely unreadable. You need to use line breaks.
But, from the little I managed to read, you seem offended as an owner of Batis lenses. That is just hilarious.

Batis lenses are fine. But they are not Zeiss lenses and they don't draw like Zeiss lenses. Do with that what you want.



Mar 02, 2025 at 03:18 PM
philip_pj
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p.19 #12 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Kudos to Ted Forbes for going a little further than the gushy tier videos that seem to be expected of any new offering by Zeiss, even in these unprecedented days of photographic plenty.

YT title:

ZEiSS IS BACK!!! This is the new Otus 50mm f/1.4

Apparently the 50ML is a pre-production issue, and it will supposedly be released later in the year, along with the 85ML. What happens after that may depend on the reception given these lenses.

I still believe Zeiss are stuck in a time warp of their own excellence in the cine field, but they are now competing in a very different market environment, one where the pursuit of perfectiuon has given way to aesthetic support for narratives.

Firstly, the market is moving quite decisively away from the 'perfection look' towards something more interesting.

Secondly, these lenses cannot do work that modern MF lenses are entirely adept at, thanks to the massive (260 degree) focus throw (a cine world artifact) and bulk/weight. And harmful aberrations of the worst kind:

I had wondered about color error, seeing responses to the Nano Primes - would-be users were not convinced by the level of CA in them - it is both more problematic in cine and unexpected in expensive equipment. I thought they would tighten up the Nano designs, but these came along. Well, proimised to some day come along, maybe.

Edited on Mar 02, 2025 at 04:54 PM · View previous versions



Mar 02, 2025 at 03:39 PM
philip_pj
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p.19 #13 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


It is difficult to tolerate visible CA in an APO lens, and lens makers are routinely hauled over the coals for even minor trangressions. Right or wrong, people associate APO with perfection. Ted does a small amount of apologia which is understandable for reviewers. But high contrast is ever-present in a lot of outdoor shooting.

The CA he sees in his images are not something we'd be happy with in say, the CV 50/2 or the SL APOs, and the better commercial lenses also, Sony's GM 50/1.4 and GM 50/1.2, others too. They are rather obvious, even in YT's compression. A related finding is that the lens at f2 sees a significant lift in performance, indicating its main role might be wide open, dreamy trad sharp plane - smooth bokeh portraits, in *controlled* lighting.

The reason Cosina and Leica use f2 as their main max apertures for their numerous APOs is that they can engineer them to perform as well at f2 as any subsequent aperture setting. Here are a few snips courtesy of Ted's YT video to show what is meant here:





f1.4 Otus ML 50/1.4







f2 Otus ML 50/1.4







f1.4 Otus ML 50/1.4







f2 Otus ML 50/1.4 - still some here.




Mar 02, 2025 at 03:58 PM
patotts
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p.19 #14 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/7453761208/zeiss-discusses-its-new-lenses-and-new-approach

Good enough read. I appreciate that Zeiss are being transparent and humble.



Mar 02, 2025 at 04:07 PM
patotts
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p.19 #15 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


wastedimages wrote:
As a Sony shooter I can tell you the Batis lenses were head and shoulders above the Zony lenses.
I have a Nikon Zf, and if they bring a high MP Zfii out, I will buy that as well, but I will always keep 1 current Sony body for my Batis lenses (I own them all), as I love those lenses, they have something that none of my other Sony glass has. That includes my GM's



Have you tried using the Batis lenses on the Zf? Easily done with a small adapter. Jus curios :-)




Mar 02, 2025 at 04:15 PM
Jonas B
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p.19 #16 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


philip_pj wrote:
It is difficult to tolerate visible CA in an APO lens, and lens makers are routinely hauled over the coals for even minor [...]


Funny you noticed the same seconds of the video as I did, this thread, page 16 post 18. The train clip surely hurts my eyes. I'm still waiting for a proper review though. It's hard to let the hope go on this one as I like how the 50mm Otus ML renders the background in some other images.



Mar 02, 2025 at 04:28 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.19 #17 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


philip_pj wrote:
It is difficult to tolerate visible CA in an APO lens, and lens makers are routinely hauled over the coals for even minor trangressions. Right or wrong, people associate APO with perfection. Ted does a small amount of apologia which is understandable for reviewers. But high contrast is ever-present in a lot of outdoor shooting.

The CA he sees in his images are not something we'd be happy with in say, the CV 50/2 or the SL APOs, and the better commercial lenses also, Sony's GM 50/1.4 and GM 50/1.2, others too. They are rather obvious, even in YT's compression.
...Show more

I see the glass as half full with these examples. Yes, the lens does have some axial CA in some shots at f/1.4. Yes, the lens does sharpen up a bit when you stop down to f/2 from f/1.4. What that means to me is that it has a different and I think really pleasant look at f/1.4 and a different really sharp look when you stop down. In many ways this reminds me of my favorite 50mm lens--the Leica M 50 f/1.4 Asph (note Peter Karbe has said it could have been labeled as APO but wasn't). That lens certainly has as much axial CA at f/1.4 as this Milvus lens, but if you know how to use it you know how to avoid the axial CA. It has a beautiful look at f/1.4. It isn't unsharp, but it does sharpen up as you stop down. I think this 50 Milvus ML will be like that lens, but will be better in not having the Leica's field curvature, which is another aspect of the lens you have to work around.

Simply put, I am not worried about these examples of axial CA. It can be handled in two ways, I suspect--but time will tell. First, you can avoid harsh contrast lighting. In my use that often involves moving to the shade for the outdoor portraits. Second, you can simply stop down to f/2 with this lens and you will avoid the axial CA even in the worst case lighting. That makes this axial CA an issue, but not one that can't be dealt with and I think I really like the look of the images and especially the bokeh, but I still want to see more examples of the lens' performance and hear more from people who have used it more. Personally, I think it might well become one of my favorites, but we'll see.


Edited on Mar 02, 2025 at 08:23 PM · View previous versions



Mar 02, 2025 at 04:39 PM
philip_pj
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p.19 #18 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


You have to like their overall rendering, and the more so as we see more about them. The Zeiss hype is pretty heavy.


Mar 02, 2025 at 04:55 PM
burningheart
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p.19 #19 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


Bacalhau wrote:
I am surprised with 2 other things:
- the Nikon and Sony thread about the Otus ML seems to be the same
- there is no Canon version of this thread



That is because it is the same thread that appears in both Sony and Nikon.

A single thread can appear in 2 forums. It was initially started in the Sony Forum and then Fred after a request had it appear both the Sony and Leica+ Alternative forums but for some reason it was later changed to Sony and Nikon.



Mar 02, 2025 at 04:56 PM
old-gregg
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p.19 #20 · ZEISS Otus ML line officially announced!


philip_pj wrote:
You have to like their overall rendering, and the more so as we see more about them. The Zeiss hype is pretty heavy.


Actually I am surprised by how much Zeiss hatred is online following this announcement. If you look at the dpreview article, and the interview with Zeiss, folks are ridiculing them. Not sure where all these strong emotions coming from, as if Zeiss had a history of unethical behavior or something. If you don't like something, just don't buy it.

Personally, I am 100% the target buyer of these lenses. Someone who prefers manual focus for static subjects, dislikes lenses that rely on digital profiles, and appreciates a nice build quality and tactile feel and fortunate to have a budget to afford all of that. Unfortunately for Zeiss I already have their Milvus line for my focal lengths on SLRs and the Voigtlander set for my Sony.



Mar 02, 2025 at 05:23 PM
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