p.6 #1 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
I guess we are all different in how we use the cameras. I tried the Nikon Z9, stupid big! tried the Z8, still too big. The current Sony A7RV A1II, A1 with an L bracket are perfect size for me, even with heavy lenses like the 600 GM or the 400-800. Agree, the Z8 and 5RII are much better value proposition, strictly from a spec/dollar perspective.
p.6 #2 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
TravelinBriNY wrote:
Interesting. I agree with you - and would love to see the A7RVI get a partially stacked sensor to compete with the R5 and Z8 lines - but i actually thought you would be speaking about the lack of a true entry level full frame camera - something priced around 2000 USD. I think that is there biggest gap. Perhaps the A7C will remain that camera?
I guess the A7CII is the lowest priced full frame camera I currently also own but never compared it to Nikon or Canon bodies in that price range since I was already in the Sony system when I got it. Owned the original A7C for a short while and don’t know how that compares to other brands.
p.6 #3 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
nineblade wrote:
Photography is so funky to me now. I agree that the Z8 is a bit too big, and it's not the camera I travel with. I travel with the Z7II or the Zf...
I don't think I'd have an issue traveling with the Z8 (given that I used to haul around a D800 and a D850), but it's not preferred. But the camera feels really comfortable and high quality in the hand.
I had the same problem with Sony too. It was hard to find a multi-purpose 'do it all' camera. I traveled with the A7R4, but while it was decent, it always felt better for landscape. So I got an A7CII for travel. I tried using either one for sports, but they both were horrific.
It's why the A7V seems so attractive. It covers a lot of bases, and doesn't cost $7000.
I have a lot of fondness for the Z8 and Zf. I walk past the camera and I want to pick it up and go find stuff to take pictures of. I have no such fondness for Sony bodies. LENSES... the handful of Sony GM's I have, yes, I want to grab them and go find things to take pictures of. But the bodys all feel like Toyota Corollas to me... while the Nikons all feel like Ferraris....Show more →
Z8 $4300
Z7II $2500
Zf $2200
A7Cii $2500
You have a lot of money in those bodies. Enough to buy the A9iii or A1ii at full price. More cameras = more depreciation, so I try to keep the camera body count down.
nineblade wrote:
But the camera feels really comfortable and high quality in the hand.
The Z8 feels like a brick in my hand, the grip is too big and the body is oversized compared to other Nikon’s. I would have no problems travelling with it in the camera bag, but it is not comfortable in hand.
I prefer a form factor similar to the Nikon D750 or Canon EOS3. The A9iii / A1ii / A1 is a good size for me.
You have a lot of money in those bodies. Enough to buy the A9iii or A1ii at full price. More cameras = more depreciation, so I try to keep the camera body count down.
The Z8 feels like a brick in my hand, the grip is too big and the body is oversized compared to other Nikon’s. I would have no problems travelling with it in the camera bag, but it is not comfortable in hand.
I prefer a form factor similar to the Nikon D750 or Canon EOS3. The A9iii / A1ii / A1 is a good size for me. ...Show more →
p.6 #5 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Personally, the Nikon Z8 has been my favorite body to hold and use. I would like to see Nikon make a smaller body with a 45MP or more sensor to use as a second camera and for when size / weight is more important. Ideally, I would like a ZF with the Z7II sensor, but I would happily take a Z7III, that's a Z7II with Expeed 7. I wonder if Nikon could make a ZR with an add on EVF and a Z9 / Z8 sensor 🤔
p.6 #6 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
aCuria wrote:
May be the wrong mental model to think about it as a “stacked” sensor. Thats just marketing nonsense
As the end user we only care about how the sensor performs. Thinking of the R5ii as a camera with a 1/160s readout speed is more accurate.
It’s not in the same class as mechanical shutter (1/250s), the A1 (1/250s) and the Z8 (1/256s). It’s more similar to the original A9 (1/160s)
Agree but while the R5 Mark II is only at 1/160 or 6.25 ms which is twice as slow as a A1 it’s still more than twice as fast as A7V sensor and offers ~ 36% more resolution. So it seems the next step up where the A1 sensors are 4x faster.
p.6 #7 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Agree but while the R5 Mark II is only at 1/160 or 6.25 ms which is twice as slow as a A1 it’s still more than twice as fast as A7V sensor and offers ~ 36% more resolution. So it seems the next step up where the A1 sensors are 4x faster.
I get what you’re saying about relative readout speeds, but the benefits regarding rolling-shutter reduction and banding aren’t incremental. They’re binary: either there’s banding or there isn’t, and either the rolling shutter is mild enough to be irrelevant or it’s severe enough to compromise the image.
The R5 Mark II still isn’t fast enough to outrun its own mechanical shutter, so in many situations you’ll be pushed back into mechanical mode. And that creates a catch-22: the moment you switch to mechanical, you lose the high burst rates that make the camera appealing in the first place. In fact, the R5 Mark II ends up worse than the A7V when both are in mechanical shutter mode, because the A7V enjoys a considerable dynamic-range advantage there.
The next real upgrade is a global shutter, not merely a 4× faster readout. Even with a 1/250 s readout time, flicker can’t be fully eliminated. (see pic below)
I strongly recommend global shutter, once you’ve used it, you wont go back.
p.6 #8 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
aCuria wrote:
I get what you’re saying about relative readout speeds, but the benefits regarding rolling-shutter reduction and banding aren’t incremental. They’re binary: either there’s banding or there isn’t, and either the rolling shutter is mild enough to be irrelevant or it’s severe enough to compromise the image.
The R5 Mark II still isn’t fast enough to outrun its own mechanical shutter, so in many situations you’ll be pushed back into mechanical mode. And that creates a catch-22: the moment you switch to mechanical, you lose the high burst rates that make the camera appealing in the first place. In fact, the R5 Mark II ends up worse than the A7V when both are in mechanical shutter mode, because the A7V enjoys a considerable dynamic-range advantage there.
The next real upgrade is a global shutter, not merely a 4× faster readout. Even with a 1/250 s readout time, flicker can’t be fully eliminated. (see pic below)
I strongly recommend global shutter, once you’ve used it, you wont go back.
So if you need a readout speed of 1/250 or better than 4ms then why are we so thrilled with the A7V? Are the A1, A1 II or A9III the only real Sony bodies, Canon R1,:and Nikon Z8 and Z9 that can suppress rolling shutter (neglecting cinema cameras)
p.6 #9 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
So if you need a readout speed of 1/250 or better than 4ms then why are we so thrilled with the A7V? Are the A1, A1 II or A9III the only real Sony bodies, Canon R1,:and Nikon Z8 and Z9 that can suppress rolling shutter (neglecting cinema cameras)
Most photographers don’t need very high fps. Mechanical shutter at ~10 fps is more than enough for events, weddings, landscapes, portraits, travel...
For this crowd, the A7V is very exciting. Excellent dynamic range, solid auto-focus performance, and a much friendlier price than the flagship cameras. Not every camera has to be a race car.
You have a lot of money in those bodies. Enough to buy the A9iii or A1ii at full price. More cameras = more depreciation, so I try to keep the camera body count down.
The Z8 feels like a brick in my hand, the grip is too big and the body is oversized compared to other Nikon’s. I would have no problems travelling with it in the camera bag, but it is not comfortable in hand.
I prefer a form factor similar to the Nikon D750 or Canon EOS3. The A9iii / A1ii / A1 is a good size for me. ...Show more →
I guess that goes to the heart of this discussion. There's no way I'm buying an A1ii, and the A9iii doesn't have enough megapixels to be my sole camera. There's no way I'm buying an A1ii because it's just way out of my price range.
I haven't paid more than $3k for a camera body. Ever. Ignoring the fact that I'm in 2 (actually 3 systems), I'd rather have a Z7II and a Z8 than an A1ii... and I'd still end up paying less money.
So the release of the A7V is godsend. I am considering selling the A7Cii and the A7R4 and getting the A7V. I will miss the 60mp if I do so though.
p.6 #11 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
aCuria wrote:
They’re binary: either there’s banding or there isn’t, and either the rolling shutter is mild enough to be irrelevant or it’s severe enough to compromise the image.
That doesn't sound right. Shooting scenarios always have a spectrum.
aCuria wrote:
The R5 Mark II still isn’t fast enough to outrun its own mechanical shutter, so in many situations you’ll be pushed back into mechanical mode. And that creates a catch-22: the moment you switch to mechanical, you lose the high burst rates that make the camera appealing in the first place. In fact, the R5 Mark II ends up worse than the A7V when both are in mechanical shutter mode, because the A7V enjoys a considerable dynamic-range advantage there.
The next real upgrade is a global shutter, not merely a 4× faster readout. Even with a 1/250 s readout time, flicker can’t be fully eliminated. (see pic below)
I strongly recommend global shutter, once you’ve used it, you wont go back.
So what's the point here? That R5ii is not a worthwhile buy that people should buy either A1ii or A7v? What if it's made by Sony (assuming Sony form factor)? Will it still be a no buy or will it change to best buy?
