p.5 #1 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
DWOfPaul wrote:
Are a lot of people actually disappointed in the a7v release? According to SAR and a few other things I have seen online, it makes it sound like a good number of people are disappointed. If that's true, what is the reason? I understand the a7v might not be the best video camera on the market, but it's a big update over the video capabilities of the a7iv and a very big update over the photo capabilities of the a7v. I feel like I am missing something. Were people really expecting an FX3 or a1ii for 1/2 the price?
I think A7v's preorder number is pretty strong. SAR is just looking for clickbait. A7v is not a problem. Maybe $200 less will be nicer for it, but it's a competitive product at its segment.
p.5 #2 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
j4nu wrote:
Maybe people are worried Sony started baking in NR in RAW ...
I get the reference lol. Personally I am not going to worry about it unless we find it causes an issue, such as the star eater issue comming back for astro photography. Sony could just be do something like Panasonic is doing were they combine the readings between the low and high ISO circuits. This would technically be a form of “Noise reduction” but should have basically zero impact on image detail, unlike traditional noise reduction techniques. (I think Canon is doing somehting similar with there dual pixel readings too, but I know less about Canons technical implementation / results)
p.5 #3 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Cliff L. wrote:
From what I see, a large percentage of "content creators" are still using iPhones and Canon Powershot cameras.
Yep, and I have definitely found iPhone created content that was well done and entertaining.
Truth is some of my favorite photos I taken this year were on my iPhone. Not because I think they're technically perfect or would work for large prints, but because it was the camera I had on me and allowed me to take a unique or memorable photo I otherwise would not have at all. In a few situations, such as while fishing in choppy conditions, it would have been basically impractical and probably even a bit unsafe to use a full camera.
p.5 #4 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
DWOfPaul wrote:
That's kind of sad. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a FF camera with a 50mp global shutter sensor, 16 stops of dynamic range, 120fps raw, 8k internal raw, and open gate for 2k... But we need to be somewhat realistic about technical limitations and what bleading edge tech costs to make. Otherwise, we are just setting people up for disappointment and unrealistic expectations. There are reasons why cinema cameras still easily break 20K + if not 50K + setups without a lens. But a 3k hybrid camera currently runs circles around any 3k photo or video camera we had 10 years ago. If you can't produce compelling content with an Sony a7v, Nikon Z6iii or Canon R6III I doubt buying a cinema camera is going to magically fix your content issues, and if so, you're probably not spending your time complaining about a 3k camera online, you're spending your time planning your movie....Show more →
People weren't hoping for an A1, they were hoping for something equivalent to an R6III - which is a cheaper camera. This isn't a tough one to parse.
And no, content creators are not using PowerShots. Geesh.
p.5 #5 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Dave Sanders wrote:
People weren't hoping for an A1, they were hoping for something equivalent to an R6III - which is a cheaper camera. This isn't a tough one to parse.
And no, content creators are not using PowerShots. Geesh.
Is R6iii really much cheaper? At least in US, it's only $100 difference, like less than 4%. Now if people want R6iii's video spec, that's a different story. But A7v seems stronger on the still side.
p.5 #6 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Neither canon nor nikon have anything like the a7c series. Not having an equivalent doesnt create a gap necessarily.
Outstanding wrote:
I would say an old camera is an old camera is an old camera.
Sony likes to keep bodies like A7RIV, A7III in the market at lower price point but it does not solve the issue of gaps in the lineup or not having entry level bodies at all other than ZV line targeted at vloggers. Sony has nothing versus Z5II or Z50II, some fanboys will say A7III is also a 24mp FF but have you held a A7III recently in hands and compared it to the newer Z's?.
It's not just about end result. Otherwise A7RII's 42mp (2015) is still top notch. People buy cameras and pursue photography for an experience, for a journey not end goal of having 42mp's on the screen to pixel peep. A7III is so dated, especially in operations. Newer Nikon Z bodies turn on in a flash like Apple's M series chips. You can turn off the camera to save battery life because they turn on instantly.
p.5 #7 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
tctmp wrote:
Is R6iii really much cheaper? At least in US, it's only $100 difference, like less than 4%. Now if people want R6iii's video spec, that's a different story. But A7v seems stronger on the still side.
It's about $300 in Canada. But that's besides the point - it's more fully featured on the video side with all the premium features people are asking for. That's where the complaints are coming from, and they're valid. There's not really an argument there.
If you're like me and you don't shoot video, it doesn't mean anything. So I agree with you, the Sony is an excellent stills camera. I think there is little to complain about on the stills side. I'm not interested in a 33mp camera, but it makes me think the A7RVI will be really nice too.
p.5 #8 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
I shoot multiple camera systems but I’m primarily a still shooter. I have been looking at both the Canon R6III and the Sony A7V. I was looking at the Canon R6III as a backup second camera to my R5 Mark II where I currently only own one mirrorless camera (excluding the 1DX Mark II I bought at an estate sale). On the Sony side the A7V would become a backup to my A1 even though I own other Sony bodies I travel with. I’m attracted to its pre-capture feature which I only currently have in my Canon R5 mark II.
Struggling with which system I should embrace and try to eliminate. Generally I now favor the Sony ecosystem but the EOS R5 Mark II to me is a great buy at between $3500 to $4300 for a fully stacked 45 Mpixel camera. Sony only competes at this price point with a used A1 with no pre-capture and aging firmware and no plan that I am aware to make further upgrades to it. Going forward I’m concerned Sony thinks the older A1, with missing modern function/features is competitive in this high mid tear price point and has no plans to compete here.
p.5 #9 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Following other forums, too, there were some hoping (probably unrealistically) for almost A1 or A9 series "speeds" at A7 close pricing. Superficially, there does seem to be a performance gap and price gap in the Sony line and many were peering over the fence at the competition, too.
p.5 #10 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Dave Sanders wrote:
It's about $300 in Canada. But that's besides the point - it's more fully featured on the video side with all the premium features people are asking for. That's where the complaints are coming from, and they're valid. There's not really an argument there.
If you're like me and you don't shoot video, it doesn't mean anything. So I agree with you, the Sony is an excellent stills camera. I think there is little to complain about on the stills side. I'm not interested in a 33mp camera, but it makes me think the A7RVI will be really nice too. ...Show more →
300 definitely makes it more of a debate than the 100 price difference here in the US. The two biggest features I see the R6III having over the a7v are 40fps over 30fps, and internal raw video. Both are features even the a1ii does not have. Realistically, we will need to wait for the a1iii to gain those types of features before Sony rolls them out to lower models. Canon taught ahead here and gave raw video to the R5II first. Which gets us back to how some of us feel Sony does not really have an R5II / Z8 competitor.
Side note, but yes, some content creators are using PowerShots. Someone I work with, who was asking me camera questions, as they want to start making better quality content than they are getting from their phone, was telling me some of the creators they follow on TT are using PowerShots instead of phones. How prevalent it is IDK, but I definitely found it interesting.
p.5 #11 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
I shoot multiple camera systems but I’m primarily a still shooter. I have been looking at both the Canon R6III and the Sony A7V. I was looking at the Canon R6III as a backup second camera to my R5 Mark II where I currently only own one mirrorless camera (excluding the 1DX Mark II I bought at an estate sale). On the Sony side the A7V would become a backup to my A1 even though I own other Sony bodies I travel with. I’m attracted to its pre-capture feature which I only currently have in my Canon R5 mark II.
Struggling with which system I should embrace and try to eliminate. Generally I now favor the Sony ecosystem but the EOS R5 Mark II to me is a great buy at between $3500 to $4300 for a fully stacked 45 Mpixel camera. Sony only competes at this price point with a used A1 with no pre-capture and aging firmware and no plan that I am aware to make further upgrades to it. Going forward I’m concerned Sony thinks the older A1, with missing modern function/features is competitive in this high mid tear price point and has no plans to compete here....Show more →
I am in a similar boat, but with Nikon and Sony. Admittedly, that makes it a bit easier in some ways as E lenses adapt quite well to Nikon Z at this point, and I primarily focus on photos. I see the a7v as a better photo camera currently, at least for me, than the Z6iii or z7ii. In some ways, it could make a really good backup to my Z8. But if my focus was video, I would probably end up with either a ZR or a second Z8 over the a7v.
p.5 #12 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
DWOfPaul wrote:
I am in a similar boat, but with Nikon and Sony. Admittedly, that makes it a bit easier in some ways as E lenses adapt quite well to Nikon Z at this point, and I primarily focus on photos. I see the a7v as a better photo camera currently, at least for me, than the Z6iii or z7ii. In some ways, it could make a really good backup to my Z8. But if my focus was video, I would probably end up with either a ZR or a second Z8 over the a7v.
Unfortunately I tried the Z9 but sold long before I knew there would be a Z8 because the Z9 was bigger than I wanted to carry and Nikon did not have a smaller body I could pair with it like the Z8. Misjudged that one.
p.5 #13 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Yes but the latest versions of these two cameras, the A1II and A9III, cost you between $6500 to $7000. Also Sony has no plan to improve firmware for the A1 or A9II to keep them current or add any features.
So do you migrate to the Canon EOS R5 Mark II to get a new camera with great features at half the price? I was lucky owning glass in both Sony FE and Canon RF systems to try that out and saved $3300 by swapping one of my two A1 (version1) straight up for the Canon R5 Mark II. It’s really just an experiment since eventually I will move back to only one system but had a need to have both. ...Show more →
Looks like you wrote: " Also Sony has no plan to improve firmware for the A1 or A9II to keep them current or add any features" a few days too soon:
ILCE-1 System Software (Firmware) Update Ver. 4.00
Benefits and Improvements
Adapts the display layout of shooting information for both horizontal and vertical viewing
Adds the Spot: XL and Spot: XS options to the Spot section of the Focus Area menu
Adds the Custom 1, Custom 2, and Custom 3 options to the Custom section of the Focus Area menu
Adds the Tracking: Spot XL, Tracking: Spot XS, Tracking: Custom 1, Tracking: Custom 2, and Tracking: Custom 3 options to the Tracking section of the Focus Area menu
Allows simultaneous deletion and rating of images stored on both memory card slot 1 and slot 2
Allows the display of folder and file names during playback
Allows you to cancel the scheduled transfer of selected images during FTP transfer
Adds support for the following Transfer & Tagging settings:
A setting to automatically schedule FTP transfer of protected still images from FTP Import
A setting to automatically schedule FTP transfer of protected still images and videos from FTP Upload Preset
A setting to automatically protect still images transferred via FTP from FTP Upload Preset
The latest version of the Transfer & Tagging app is necessary.
The Transfer & Tagging setting may not be available in some countries or regions.
Supports the following Monitor & Control app functions:
Focus map display
IRIS operation bar display
The latest version of the Monitor & Control app is necessary.
The Monitor & Control app may not be available in some countries or regions.
Supports the Write Digital Signature function for movies as part of Sony’s Camera Authenticity Solution
The timing for the provision of licenses (paid) to customers other than certain media outlets is yet to be determined.
Services may not be available in some countries or regions. For more information, please visit the Authenticity Catalog Page.
Supports Scan and Tag, Photo Cropping, and Volume Photography Commands under the Volume Photography License
Installation of a paid license is required for use.
Services may not be available in some countries or regions.
No longer supports the Security (IPsec) functionality. Please enable and use Access Authen. for enhanced protection and security
No longer supports WPA and WEP functionalities. You will no longer be able to select WPA or WEP when connecting to Wi-Fi. Please use the more secure WPA2 or WPA3 security setting moving forward
Fixes an issue where continuous shooting may not resume for 1 to 2 seconds after the end of a continuous shooting session
Fixes an issue where the multi-selector on the vertical grip may not function correctly
Improves the operational stability of the camera
p.5 #14 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
I agree - from a stills perspective, the holes I see are more in the Z5/Z8 realm. I'd love a Sony Z8, and I think lots of younger people or people with limited budgets would be attracted to something cheaper like a Z5II. My nephew is getting in to photography more, and I can't recommend Sony for a new camera for him.
On the video front, I know a couple of people who do it for a living, movies and otherwise, and the big features for them on a non-cinema cam are things like 7k and open gate. Clients want multi platform content, and 7k and open gate gives them the ability to crop to platform specs with one shot or setup.
In reality though...one of my friends uses ARRI on movies, Panasonic for his personal business and Sony in his personal life. He was sorta hoping to combine business and personal, but I really doubt he'd stop using his Panasonic cams, which he really likes.
So, I suspect Sony is readying the FX3II to out compete the Canon C50 and video focused Lumix cams, but in so doing are abandoning a bit if the run and gun market which favours cheaper cameras. Clearly they're ok with that.
DWOfPaul wrote:
300 definitely makes it more of a debate than the 100 price difference here in the US. The two biggest features I see the R6III having over the a7v are 40fps over 30fps, and internal raw video. Both are features even the a1ii does not have. Realistically, we will need to wait for the a1iii to gain those types of features before Sony rolls them out to lower models. Canon taught ahead here and gave raw video to the R5II first. Which gets us back to how some of us feel Sony does not really have an R5II / Z8 competitor.
Side note, but yes, some content creators are using PowerShots. Someone I work with, who was asking me camera questions, as they want to start making better quality content than they are getting from their phone, was telling me some of the creators they follow on TT are using PowerShots instead of phones. How prevalent it is IDK, but I definitely found it interesting. ...Show more →
p.5 #15 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Dave Sanders wrote:
On the video front, I know a couple of people who do it for a living, movies and otherwise, and the big features for them on a non-cinema cam are things like 7k and open gate. Clients want multi platform content, and 7k and open gate gives them the ability to crop to platform specs with one shot or setup.
In reality though...one of my friends uses ARRI on movies, Panasonic for his personal business and Sony in his personal life. He was sorta hoping to combine business and personal, but I really doubt he'd stop using his Panasonic cams, which he really likes.
So, I suspect Sony is readying the FX3II to out compete the Canon C50 and video focused Lumix cams, but in so doing are abandoning a bit if the run and gun market which favours cheaper cameras. Clearly they're ok with that. ...Show more →
That's pretty close to my take too. I feel like Sony looks at the a lines as good options for 4k video and really good options for people looking to film in 4k and export 1080p. If you want more than good 4k you really need to move up to the FX lines.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to see Nikon and Sony embrace open gate, but I am a bit surprised that this is now becoming such a large talking point. Yet the ability to film in 6k with the Z6III / ZR and crop down, which would give a similar result to 4k open gate, is not discussed much. Open gate on the R6III also comes with some limitations, such as increased rolling shutter, which I wonder how many people are aware of. Hopefully open gate support will keep improving over time.
Maybe someone in the L mount world will produce an R5II / Z8 / a1ii competitor and we can start to get away from some of the strange limitations Nikon / Sony / Canon put on their customers currently. (Canon with the lack of third party lens support, Sony with the lack of advanced video features and thrid party lens limitations like 15fps, Nikon with the lack of Sigma lenses and compact bodies).
p.5 #16 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
LBJ2 wrote:
Looks like you wrote: " Also Sony has no plan to improve firmware for the A1 or A9II to keep them current or add any features" a few days too soon:
ILCE-1 System Software (Firmware) Update Ver. 4.00
Benefits and Improvements
Adapts the display layout of shooting information for both horizontal and vertical viewing
Adds the Spot: XL and Spot: XS options to the Spot section of the Focus Area menu
Adds the Custom 1, Custom 2, and Custom 3 options to the Custom section of the Focus Area menu
Adds the Tracking: Spot XL, Tracking: Spot XS, Tracking: Custom 1, Tracking: Custom 2, and Tracking: Custom 3 options to the Tracking section of the Focus Area menu
Allows simultaneous deletion and rating of images stored on both memory card slot 1 and slot 2
Allows the display of folder and file names during playback
Allows you to cancel the scheduled transfer of selected images during FTP transfer
Adds support for the following Transfer & Tagging settings:
A setting to automatically schedule FTP transfer of protected still images from FTP Import
A setting to automatically schedule FTP transfer of protected still images and videos from FTP Upload Preset
A setting to automatically protect still images transferred via FTP from FTP Upload Preset
The latest version of the Transfer & Tagging app is necessary.
The Transfer & Tagging setting may not be available in some countries or regions.
Supports the following Monitor & Control app functions:
Focus map display
IRIS operation bar display
The latest version of the Monitor & Control app is necessary.
The Monitor & Control app may not be available in some countries or regions.
Supports the Write Digital Signature function for movies as part of Sony’s Camera Authenticity Solution
The timing for the provision of licenses (paid) to customers other than certain media outlets is yet to be determined.
Services may not be available in some countries or regions. For more information, please visit the Authenticity Catalog Page.
Supports Scan and Tag, Photo Cropping, and Volume Photography Commands under the Volume Photography License
Installation of a paid license is required for use.
Services may not be available in some countries or regions.
No longer supports the Security (IPsec) functionality. Please enable and use Access Authen. for enhanced protection and security
No longer supports WPA and WEP functionalities. You will no longer be able to select WPA or WEP when connecting to Wi-Fi. Please use the more secure WPA2 or WPA3 security setting moving forward
Fixes an issue where continuous shooting may not resume for 1 to 2 seconds after the end of a continuous shooting session
Fixes an issue where the multi-selector on the vertical grip may not function correctly
Improves the operational stability of the camera...Show more →
I guess you’re right. I just got home and saw the email about the 4.00 firmware update for the A1. I will have to review to see if they are giving us anything I can use. Also now have to wait maybe 4 weeks to see if it can be loaded without bricking the camera like the latest 6.00 version did to the A7IV earlier.
p.5 #17 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
I shoot multiple camera systems but I’m primarily a still shooter. I have been looking at both the Canon R6III and the Sony A7V. I was looking at the Canon R6III as a backup second camera to my R5 Mark II where I currently only own one mirrorless camera (excluding the 1DX Mark II I bought at an estate sale). On the Sony side the A7V would become a backup to my A1 even though I own other Sony bodies I travel with. I’m attracted to its pre-capture feature which I only currently have in my Canon R5 mark II.
Struggling with which system I should embrace and try to eliminate. Generally I now favor the Sony ecosystem but the EOS R5 Mark II to me is a great buy at between $3500 to $4300 for a fully stacked 45 Mpixel camera. Sony only competes at this price point with a used A1 with no pre-capture and aging firmware and no plan that I am aware to make further upgrades to it. Going forward I’m concerned Sony thinks the older A1, with missing modern function/features is competitive in this high mid tear price point and has no plans to compete here....Show more →
EOS R5 Mark II to me is a great buy at between $3500 to $4300 for a fully stacked 45 Mpixel camera.
May be the wrong mental model to think about it as a “stacked” sensor. Thats just marketing nonsense
As the end user we only care about how the sensor performs. Thinking of the R5ii as a camera with a 1/160s readout speed is more accurate.
It’s not in the same class as mechanical shutter (1/250s), the A1 (1/250s) and the Z8 (1/256s). It’s more similar to the original A9 (1/160s)
p.5 #18 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Unfortunately I tried the Z9 but sold long before I knew there would be a Z8 because the Z9 was bigger than I wanted to carry and Nikon did not have a smaller body I could pair with it like the Z8. Misjudged that one.
The Z8 is also too big imo
Nikon got the body size right in the D750 era, I am not sure why they made the Z8 so big
p.5 #19 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
aCuria wrote:
The Z8 is also too big imo
Nikon got the body size right in the D750 era, I am not sure why they made the Z8 so big
Photography is so funky to me now. I agree that the Z8 is a bit too big, and it's not the camera I travel with. I travel with the Z7II or the Zf...
I don't think I'd have an issue traveling with the Z8 (given that I used to haul around a D800 and a D850), but it's not preferred. But the camera feels really comfortable and high quality in the hand.
I had the same problem with Sony too. It was hard to find a multi-purpose 'do it all' camera. I traveled with the A7R4, but while it was decent, it always felt better for landscape. So I got an A7CII for travel. I tried using either one for sports, but they both were horrific.
It's why the A7V seems so attractive. It covers a lot of bases, and doesn't cost $7000.
I have a lot of fondness for the Z8 and Zf. I walk past the camera and I want to pick it up and go find stuff to take pictures of. I have no such fondness for Sony bodies. LENSES... the handful of Sony GM's I have, yes, I want to grab them and go find things to take pictures of. But the bodys all feel like Toyota Corollas to me... while the Nikons all feel like Ferraris.
p.5 #20 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive? ...Show more →
Interesting. I agree with you - and would love to see the A7RVI get a partially stacked sensor to compete with the R5 and Z8 lines - but i actually thought you would be speaking about the lack of a true entry level full frame camera - something priced around 2000 USD. I think that is there biggest gap. Perhaps the A7C will remain that camera?
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