p.1 #1 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive?
p.1 #3 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Just like the a7IV is now the default entry-level model, I'm pretty sure they'd point to the original a1 (still selling new, currently $1300 less than the sequel) as the logical competitor.
p.1 #4 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Any proposals?
Yes!
Sony sould do absolutely nothing.
Because Canikon is not competitive. Not in sensor tech. Not in the glass department. Not in power management.
Besides, the Sony A7V covers 99% of all use cases and offers more than most people can master or even understand. All other Sony cameras are bragging rights, GAS, and niche use cases like squirrel butthole trained autofocus at 100fps.
p.1 #5 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive? ...Show more →
Is your entire analysis based on current retail price points of new cameras? Sony is 4 generations ahead of Canon and Nikon. If you need a stacked sensor, get a used a9, a9 II or a1. If your need pixels, get a used a7R III or IV.
p.1 #6 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
I would expect the bodies from Canon (and similarly from Nikon) to be cheaper than bodies from Sony. Canon controls its lens market tightly so higher lens prices can subsidize cheaper bodies. This needs to be considered when comparing these brands.
p.1 #7 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive? ...Show more →
I agree that I wish there is an offering from Sony with R5ii's specs (45-50MP stacked with precapture raw) for $4k. Unfortunately, the camera models are typically not directly comparable. The same thing can be said about A7v that there is no direct competitor either from Canon or Nikon with similar specs.
Also 2.6ms slower than A1ii is significant in this case. That's 2/3 slower.
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p.1 #8 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive? ...Show more →
Seems to me Sony has bracketed that Canon R5 Mark II pretty effectively. If you are sensitive to price the A7 V is going to be cheaper and nearly as good as the Canon. It looks to have good precapture, fast fps, great AF, that compete well with Canon, nearly as many pixels (the difference between 33 MP and 45 MP is quite small) and about the same sensor readout speed. Sure the Canon has a little better specs, especially if you want 8K video (but how many people actually use that), but I see this new A7 V compete with the Canon R5 II well.
If you really want the top camera, however, and you aren't that sensitive to cost then the A1 beats the Canon R5 II in almost all specs. Sure, it is a reasonable question if it is worth the extra cost, but if you are asking that question you might well be in the market for the A7 V.
I think Sony is competing very well here, and it is up to Canon to either come up with a camera that is clearly better than the A1 II (maybe the R3 II), or that competes more effectively with the A7 V (maybe the R6 III with more pixels and better sensor scan speed). The R5 II (and the R5 III after it) will still have its place, but Sony will do what it has always done and let older A1 OG compete with the R5 II and older A1 II's compete with the R5 III when it comes out. Sony is not a clear choice with that competition with their older cameras compared to the newer Nikon and Sony cameras, but I don't think Sony cares as they are doing great bracketing those medium range cameras (Canon R5 and Nikon Z8) with the A7 series and the A1 series.
p.1 #9 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive? ...Show more →
Used A1 is what one should buy to compete with an R5II for price. You don't get precapture and you don't get Canon level BEAF (but you don't get that with an A1II either) but otherwise you get a better camera overall for what I shoot (BIF).
But there is no denying that the R5II and the Z8 are very good value and compete well with much higher priced A1II.
I don't know how Sony could release a camera in that price range to really compete because the R5II is so close in specs to the A1II. As you say, Sony would really have to just reduce the A1II price but we know they won't.
p.1 #11 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Sony equally has a hole on the pro-sumer side. There's nothing to match the Nikon z6iii/Z5ii/Zf in price. While the Nikon lags in lenses, Sony can rule the roost, but looking at how DSLRs turned out, it won't be long till Nikon catches up.
p.1 #12 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
swldstn wrote:
Now that we have seen the new A7V with 34 Mpixels partially stacked sensor I’m feeling Sony has a hole in their full frame camera family. There is the A7V @ $2898 US, the 61 Mpixel A7RV @ $3298 with the current $900 discount, the 24.3 Mpixel A9III @ $6798, and the 50 Mpixel A1 II @ $6998. These are of course the current price of Sony’s full size full frame offering in the US. These are all full size full frame bodies that can take a battery grip.
Problem is the Canon R5 Mark II with a full frame stack sensor at 45 Mpixel is selling at $3899 that is discounted by $500 for the holidays that sits right in the middle. It’s currently about $2600 to $3100 cheaper than the A1 II. If we look at it only gives up 5 Mpixels to the A1 II and some think it’s AF is on par with the A1 II and it sensor readout is only 2.6 ms slower than the A1 II but but cost 40% less.
So what can Sony offer its customer in this price / performance category that is more than the A7V? Any proposals?
Or does Sony need to reduce the A1 II $1000 to $1500 to make it more competitive? ...Show more →
p.1 #13 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
shadow9d9 wrote:
What does Canon offer in 3rd party lenses? Oh, it has a tiny selection.
At least in terms of the European market, the price difference between a Nikon Z8, Canon R5 II, and Sony A1 II is so high that you still have several thousand left over to buy OEM lenses.
The Sony A1 II costs a whopping €4,000 more than a Nikon Z8, which is enough to buy a few nice lenses.
That's enough for a new Z 24-70/2.8 S & Z 135/1.8 S Plena before you reach the price of the A1 II.
Or, to put it another way, for the price of one A1 II, you can get two Z8s and still have some money left over.
With a Canon R5 II, you're left with €3,700 ≈ US$4300 compared to a Sony A1 II, which is also enough for a nice basic lens setup.
If price is a factor, and it is for the majority of buyers in the R5II/Z8 category, then the A1 II is not a real alternative, as it is in a completely different price category.
The closest alternative from Sony is primarily the predecessor model, the A1.
However, I would agree that Sony is sufficiently well positioned there with the now significantly reduced A1 and the new A7V, so there is no need for a directly competing model.
p.1 #14 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
shadow9d9 wrote:
What does Canon offer in 3rd party lenses? Oh, it has a tiny selection.
True, but not everyone wants to buy the crappy Dollar Store lenses.
Having said that, Canon's native RF lineup is pretty thin, and most of their non-L glass isn't great either. I sold my R5 II and ultimately switched to Sony for the G and GM lenses, but in my experience, Canon still has the edge in overall AF performance and image quality (albeit at slightly lower resolution than the A7RV/A1).
p.1 #15 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
I felt the same way. Sony does not really have a Z8 competitor either. I don't really count the A1ii at practically twice the price a real competitor. Sure the A1ii has a few features the Z8 does not but the Z8 also has some features the A1ii does not. I also don't really count the A1 as a competitor, as it's still about 2k more, is almost 5 years old, and has a bunch of the older tech Sony has improved on since, such as the older IBIS implementation.
I do have to admit, at least on paper so far, the a7v has impressed me more than I thought it was going to. I don't see it replacing my Z8, but it appears to close the action photography gap at the lower price range well enough that I may consider picking one up once more reviews come out.
On the first party lens side, outside of total number of mirrorless lenses, I find it hard to pick a winner. Sony, Nikon, and Canon all have some impressive lenses in their mirrorless lineup. On the third party side, Canon is extremely weak, Nikon is somewhere in the middle, and Sony is arguably the best. But Sonny's limitation of 15fps and no TC's on third party lenses is becoming more of an issue by the year. When third party e mount lenses are performing better adapted to a Nikon Z, I have to start wondering if Sony is losing it's lead for third party lenses. There are now even reports of the a7v not working with some third party lenses: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/weird-chinese-third-party-e-mount-lenses-do-not-work-properly-on-the-new-sony-a7v/
p.1 #16 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
freaklikeme wrote:
Just like the a7IV is now the default entry-level model, I'm pretty sure they'd point to the original a1 (still selling new, currently $1300 less than the sequel) as the logical competitor.
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old-gregg wrote:
Yes!
Sony sould do absolutely nothing.
Because Canikon is not competitive. Not in sensor tech. Not in the glass department. Not in power management.
Besides, the Sony A7V covers 99% of all use cases and offers more than most people can master or even understand. All other Sony cameras are bragging rights, GAS, and niche use cases like squirrel butthole trained autofocus at 100fps.
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jeffbuzz wrote:
Is your entire analysis based on current retail price points of new cameras? Sony is 4 generations ahead of Canon and Nikon. If you need a stacked sensor, get a used a9, a9 II or a1. If your need pixels, get a used a7R III or IV.
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jtra wrote:
I would expect the bodies from Canon (and similarly from Nikon) to be cheaper than bodies from Sony. Canon controls its lens market tightly so higher lens prices can subsidize cheaper bodies. This needs to be considered when comparing these brands.
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tctmp wrote:
I agree that I wish there is an offering from Sony with R5ii's specs (45-50MP stacked with precapture raw) for $4k. Unfortunately, the camera models are typically not directly comparable. The same thing can be said about A7v that there is no direct competitor either from Canon or Nikon with similar specs.
Also 2.6ms slower than A1ii is significant in this case. That's 2/3 slower.
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Cliff L. wrote:
True, but not everyone wants to buy the crappy Dollar Store lenses.
Having said that, Canon's native RF lineup is pretty thin, and most of their non-L glass isn't great either. I sold my R5 II and ultimately switched to Sony for the G and GM lenses, but in my experience, Canon still has the edge in overall AF performance and image quality (albeit at slightly lower resolution than the A7RV/A1).
I agree with most of what you said, except image quality. I shot Canon since early 1980s, and got into the Sony system in 2009. Shot dual,platforms until the end of last year when I sold all of my Canon gear…. Mostly because of the better ecosystem with Sony, but especially the better image quality from the Sony’s.
p.1 #18 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Jazzgear296 wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, except image quality.
Sony has a slight edge in resolution; Canon has a slight edge in dynamic range and a large edge in colour rendition. Different things are important to different people, obviously.
p.1 #19 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
This color rendition is one of those supernatural beliefs some want to keep repeating without no supporting evidence; pure superstition.
Now challenge me.
Cliff L. wrote:
Sony has a slight edge in resolution; Canon has a slight edge in dynamic range and a large edge in colour rendition. Different things are important to different people, obviously.
p.1 #20 · Sony’s missing camera. There is a hole in the lineup.
Cliff L. wrote:
Sony has a slight edge in resolution; Canon has a slight edge in dynamic range and a large edge in colour rendition. Different things are important to different people, obviously.
I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder. Only thing I give Canon is the edge on out of Camera colors. But who cares about that? I don’t shoot in jpgs. I find Sony files way more malleable in post — and way more dynamic range without a doubt.
And this is not speculation or false claims as I had been shooting Canon since the early 80s up through the end of last year…and Sony since 2009. And I was fully kitted on both platforms. My most recent Canon cameras were: EOS R, R6, R5, R5II, R3, and R1.
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