BigBabyMoses06 wrote:
Is 10fps usable for sports? Yes. Is it usable for sports photos that you're getting paid for? Probably not, but maybe. Am I happy with 10fps for personal or unpaid work? No. Once you feel 15 - 20 fps, it's very difficult to go back. For me, anyway. Also, once you feel the AF 120/second calculation speed of the A1/A9, it is also hard to go back to 60 cals per second bodies. In the same vane, once you use a sensor with 5ms readout, and get rid of any rolling shutter, I have ZERO desire to go backwards in that department.
The dream would have been this camera with a 5 - 10ms readout speed, so I can crop more in sports and wild life. I cannot afford a 400 2.8 or 600 f4 lens to make up the reach. ...Show more →
I guess if you asked if I'd rather spend $3k on a used A1 or $4500 on the A7R I'd feel like I was getting much more capability with the A1*.
*FM Disclaimer: That's specifically for my uses and not saying that should apply to everyone
Jman13 wrote:
This is not a sports camera. Why are people trying to shoehorn it into that niche?
Fredmiranda users are incredibly wildlife/sports oriented. I honestly don't know why, probably historical reasons. IRL all my photo contacts are weddings, events, real estate and landscape. They care about resolution, noise, dynamic range, weight, power management, AF dependability, glass selection, ergonomics. But then I come here and it's nothing but pre-capture or sensor speed in most conversations. Bizzarre. It's like going to BMW forums only to see endless debates about air pressure in a spare.
I think if you keep in mind it is an update to the a7Rv and not really designed as an a1II killer it looks like a winner. 16 stops DR, I like the * mode on the dial, the better EVF, and I assume it won't drop evf resolution when focusing. The faster sensor speed will be welcome in video. It also enables 10fps 14 bit with mechanical shutter, the prior was capped at 7 fps.For outdoor scenarios you get 30fps and precapture with non-pro levels of rolling shutter. I think you will still want to use mechanical in many situations, especially indoor to avoid banding. Looks like the AF sensor now cover essentially the entire sensor, this is one weakness I regularly encounter on the a7Rv, now fixed.
It makes a high resolution landscape camera more versatile than the prior version. I don't think there is anything it does worse, except maybe cost more and lose battery compatibility. I liked Mark Galer's review as it answered most of my questions factually without hype or disappointment.
old-gregg wrote:
Fredmiranda users are incredibly wildlife/sports oriented. I honestly don't know why, probably historical reasons. IRL all my photo contacts are weddings, events, real estate and landscape. They care about resolution, noise, dynamic range, weight, power management, AF dependability, glass selection, ergonomics. But then I come here and it's nothing but pre-capture or sensor speed in most conversations. Bizzarre. It's like going to BMW forums only to see endless debates about air pressure in a spare.
snapsy wrote:
A stacked sensor isn't required for a DGO implementation, particularly one that is limited to a mechanical/EFCS shutter.
It's a lot harder to do with a non-stacked sensor, particularly if the readout is 100ms like the A7RV...makes it very difficult / impossible to do it when shooting at 10fps mechanical like this can too. I didn't say it was the only way it could be done, just that this is what Sony is doing with this sensor.
16 stops of DR (a full-stop improvement over the Alpha 1 II and the A7R V), 66 MP, 8.5 stops of IBIS. No need for a tripod to reach multi second photos.
Handheld shooting at 30fps, high ISO (say 32000), RAW in 15 bit and stack it in post and get clear results!
If that aint enough just do a 270 megapixel shot with stacking!
stuuke wrote:
I guess if you asked if I'd rather spend $3k on a used A1 or $4500 on the A7R I'd feel like I was getting much more capability with the A1*.
*FM Disclaimer: That's specifically for my uses and not saying that should apply to everyone
Totally agree. I hardly pick up my A7RV now that I have an A1mk1. The only thing missing from the A1 lineup for me is a full shutter, rather than EFCS only. That's the only reason I keep the A7RV (for off camera flash and HSS shooting).
deepDEEPpurple wrote:
Dude, imagine the possibilities:
16 stops of DR (a full-stop improvement over the Alpha 1 II and the A7R V), 66 MP, 8.5 stops of IBIS. No need for a tripod to reach multi second photos.
Handheld shooting at 30fps, high ISO (say 32000), RAW in 15 bit and stack it in post and get clear results!
If that aint enough just do a 270 megapixel shot with stacking!
Very creative! Would love to see examples of the handheld long exposure in practice.
Jman13 wrote:
It's a lot harder to do with a non-stacked sensor, particularly if the readout is 100ms like the A7RV...makes it very difficult / impossible to do it when shooting at 10fps mechanical like this can too. I didn't say it was the only way it could be done, just that this is what Sony is doing with this sensor.
Many sensors have improved readout speeds without requiring stacked logic, for example many of Canon's R models. A little known secret is that both stacked and non-stacked sensors use the same method to improve readout speeds - by increasing the number of rows read out in parallel. The only difference is that stacked sensors move that additional parallel data faster off the sensor, which is why they achieve materially higher readout speeds vs sensors using the same technique but offloading the data over slower, non-stacked DRAM interfaces. The takeaway is that non-stacked sensors are fast enough to support a DGO implementation.
While I love the size of type A cards. And the fact that you can fit two identical cards slots in such a small body. The speed difference (not to mention the price) between type A and Type B is get increasingly harder to ignore
Please Sony, if you want to continue type A route. Which I’m OK with. Please make future camera bodies 4.0 compatible
Jman13 wrote:
This is not a sports camera. Why are people trying to shoehorn it into that niche?
old-gregg wrote:
Fredmiranda users are incredibly wildlife/sports oriented. I honestly don't know why, probably historical reasons. IRL all my photo contacts are weddings, events, real estate and landscape. They care about resolution, noise, dynamic range, weight, power management, AF dependability, glass selection, ergonomics. But then I come here and it's nothing but pre-capture or sensor speed in most conversations. Bizzarre. It's like going to BMW forums only to see endless debates about air pressure in a spare.
This camera will be great for sports. I use my a7riii for motorsports and it is just fine. My a7rvi is now on order, it will be a great camera for me, wildlife, landscape, motorsports, and birds...
There are non stacked sensors that can do this, but, there aren’t any 67MP and higher resolution sensors that can do this at full frame (or larger) sizes. Again, just because another solution is theoretically possible doesn’t invalidate the use of their solution for this purpose.
snapsy wrote:
Many sensors have improved readout speeds without requiring stacked logic, for example many of Canon's R models. A little known secret is that both stacked and non-stacked sensors use the same method to improve readout speeds - by increasing the number of rows read out in parallel. The only difference is that stacked sensors move that additional parallel data faster off the sensor, which is why they achieve materially higher readout speeds vs sensors using the same technique but offloading the data over slower, non-stacked DRAM interfaces. The takeaway is that non-stacked sensors are fast enough to support a DGO implementation....Show more →
It's funny that this sensor is being scrutinized so hard simply because it's stacked and thusly compared to the A1 II (a stupid game to play).
If this was a run of the mill non-stacked BSI sensor that was a simple iteration of the formula and had all of the same specs, it would be universally lauded. If it was marketed accurately as the landscape camera that can do a bunch more, it would be better understood.
You'd be hard pressed to find a Nikon shooter that wouldn't want this in a Z7 III, too.
Jman13 wrote:
There are non stacked sensors that can do this, but, there aren’t any 67MP and higher resolution sensors that can do this at full frame (or larger) sizes. Again, just because another solution is theoretically possible doesn’t invalidate the use of their solution for this purpose.
The 44MP non-stacked sensor in the S1RII has a 14-bit readout speed of 37ms (1/27). 67MP / 44MP = 1.52 more pixels on the A7rVI vs S1RII, so 37ms * 1.52 more pixels translates to a 67MP equivalent readout rate of 56.39ms (1/17), which means current, non-stacked sensor tech is fast enough to support DGO on a 67MP sensor with 10fps with only a marginal increase in readout speed.
This doesn't invalidate the notion the A7RVI is using a stacked sensor in some manner to facilitate its DGO implementation, but it does demonstrate that a stacked sensor isn't required to do so.
Solid camera for those who need a few key features, are new to the market, or skipped the A7rV generation and are a few behind. It won't destroy A1II sales for sports/BIF stuff. It is kinda funny to me that folks said this would be an A1II killer but didn't say it would be an A7V killer.
I'll probably upgrade from my A7rV and use it as a second body but I bet I'll continue to reach for the A1II more often than not and just use this for second body or landscape adventures.
Wins:
- More resolution (if needed), faster AF, higher dynamic range
- Better video specs (and pretty clean at 4k res for 13+ stops of DR), and Float32/XLR thingy
- Burst mode (30fps), precapture
- Better readout speed of sensor, although not fast enough for sports and BIF might see issues still
Meh or reasons not to upgrade:
- Resolution isn't a huge shift unless you're doing massive prints
- It's not going to solve most peoples problems. If you explicitly know the problem you have that can _only_ be solve by this camera cool then you might consider it. Otherwise set aside your GAS and learn skills as photographers have taken great images with less capable gear for decades.
